"Work Flow" for a show car refinish?

[tom h]

I'm beginning to plan for a "nearly" show car finish. Super-straight, swirl free, ultra deep gloss black. I think I want a conventional base/clear coat system, and am prepared to spend up to $7K - $10K. The car is low mile So Calif, rust free.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the "work flow", or sequence of steps, for when I start interviewing paint shops. I'm still a bit confused by some of the terms and proper use of "surfacers", "blocking", etc.

While I'm not fixated on particular paint brands, I'm maybe partial to PPG and it would be helpful if specific PPG products were referenced at each step.

Assuming I wanted to have the original 18 yr old finish taken down to bare metal, what would be a logical sequence of steps?

Some of my questions include,

1) sanding to bare metal -- most seem to prefer this over hard-to-remove chemicals which can get into seams & corners & crevices. Yes?

2) Acid / Chemical conversion of bare metal to enhance paint adhesion-- Seems to have same drawbacks as paint stripper.
Is self-etching primers a better way, and which product is appropriate?

3) how does one sand & prepare the non-metal surfaces, eg the Fiberglass parts (spoiler, front end) and the Flexible bumper fillers?

3) What comes after primer? And what are "surfacers" and "sealers" and their purpose?

4) How are wavy ripples prevented or fixed? I want to be able to sight down the body under fluoresecent lights and see absolute smoothness.

5) How are are any swirls prevented or fixed? Paint should be a perfect black mirror.

6) what are appropriate PPG products at each stage of the refinishing process?

7) Would the fiberglass parts and flexible bumper fillers receive exactly the same base/clear paints? Of course, want their color and appearance to exactly match the metal body and bumpers.

Appreciate responses... maybe this thread can become a "reference guide" of sorts.

 

[Drop Top]

Restorations are all I do. I have won many "Best Paint" awards. I have painted magazen cars and cars for some of the top brand paint companies. Black is a color that started my reputaion.

The first thing you want to do is ask the potenual painter to see and talk to some of his former customers. Talk to as many of them as possable. Don't do bussness with some fly by night. If you have a problem down the road. You will want to be able to find him.

The steps in painting your car to a show finish.
Strip all paint, bumpers, emblems ect. The main reasion to strip the paint is to get rid of the laquer that your car was painted with in the first place. And to see if any bad repairs have been done on the car at any time in the past.

After that is done. The body work should be done. Then metal etched. Then sealed. After that the plastic fillers should be spread and blocked.

Now the blocking process begins. A blocking/filler primer should be used. The car should be blocked no less then 3 times. After each blocking another coat of primer is sprayed on the car and a finer grad of paper is used. For this process I wet sand by hand with a speical block that I have had made up made from carbon fiber. This is what gets the body Flat, Flat, Flat, and straight as an arrow. This also brings out the body lines.

After the blocking comes the sealing and painting. Base/Clear is all I use. For the deep wet look the clear needs to be at least 3 coats deep. Thats enough clear if your using good quality.

Then the color sanding and buffing begins. The clear is sanded with a very fine paper entill it is compleaty dull. Then it will be buffed out to a vey hiogh gloss. I wont tell you the differant process that I use because everyone has there own way of doing it. And its kind of like telling your compatition how its done.

Asfar as using PPG it is a very high quality paint. One of the best. But if the painter is not used to useing it you may be in for a suprise. Its kind of like going to your favorite restuant and asking them to cook somthing like a differant restuant dose. If you want it done with that then go to where they use that.

You wont find a show paint job at a production shop. You have to find one that dose this kind of work. (Don't go to a hamberger joint and ask for steak and lobster.)

As far as painting plastic and fiberglass. The base coat system will flex without having to add anything into the paint or clear. Its made from urithane and so are the bumpers.

 

[Drop Top]

The best way in my opion to remove all paint on a compleat car is by Plastic Media Blasting. I have been doing it like this for over 10 years and never had anything hurt in any way shape or form. In your case all the paint should come off.

I charge by time and Materials and the person that is going to do your car should too. If he dosn't he dosen't know what he's getting in to. Thats the only way to do it and be fare to everyone involved. Be very careful of someone that will give you an exact amount. What usually happens is when the job starts taking more time then that person thought it would. That person will start to cut corners. You don't want that to happen to you.

I also take pictures as I go along. Thats for two reasions. One, to show you the progress. Two, to have a record for myself for later referance, if needed. I also own my own shop free and clear. The shop is directly behind my house. My customers can come and look and spend as much time as they please looking and talking to me about their cars and its progress. Preaty much any day of the week that they want. I here 7 days a week. Enless I'm away at a car show or getting materials or lunch. My shop phone is also located inside my house. So I can be contacted from 8:00am to around 9:00 pm.

The best way to find someone to paint your car is by word of mouth. Then when you talk to that person, ask yourself. Do you feel comfortable with this person? If theres something you don't like about him/her, then shine him on. The biggest thing is look at as much of his work as you can. Talk to as many people that have used him as you can. If he won't give you referances find someone else. If your not comfortable with him. Go some where else. Because your going to have to deal with this person for 6 to 8 months at least.

If you have any more questions. Please feel free to pm me and I will gladly give you my phone number so you can give me a call. I will gladly help you with my advice on the person that you are looking at to do your car. Or you can come up to my shop and I'll show you the kind of work that your looking for. I'm not that far away from you.

One last thing. Don't try to tell the person that is doing your car how to do it. If your not comfortable with him, pull the car as soon as possable. The way I charge is, pay as you go. That way if you don't like somthing that is happening. You can take your car and I can move on to the next person in line. I've never had this happen to me yet. I have told people to come get their cars before I have finished with them though. Because I didn't like that person's atitude. I'm a no bull sh-- kind of person and I wont put up with it eather. Call me a red neck, good o'l boy or country pumpkin if you want. I am what I am.

 

[YBLEGL]

Tom H i have been painting cars for about 5 years now and am doing 3 customs right now for the upcomming world of wheels car show in this area its a real big show and drop top is exactly right. Dont go to a production shop they are used to hack and spray to get them out the door because they are insurance companys. PPG is a very good paint line. Some products you might want to ask is what they use for base and clear if they dont use their global line or concept line then ask if they can you dont want your car sprayed with OMNI or Deltron its not show quality stuff. Also for that deep deep look I have found in the past the best way to do it is single stage the car 2 coats then add 2 coats of straight clear on top of the single stage and it looks sick. As far as getting the body straight , that involves lots of blocking with a sanding block by hand not a airboard that will give you waves. I wouldnt use a chemical stripper at all to strip the car it just ruins it. If you want to know some exact product numbers let me know I spray PPG every day at work and can give you the right product numbers I would use on my own personal car.

 

[tom h]

Originally posted by Drop Top ... After that is done. The body work should be done. Then metal etched. Then sealed. After that the plastic fillers should be spread and blocked ...

hmm, are you suggesting that an acid based conversion coating should be used? eg, PPG's DX520 "Metal Conditioner" ?

Or did you mean a self-etching primer?

And, thx everyone for the advice so far.

 

[Drop Top]

Yes, I'm talking about that stuff. I have been doing restorations professionaly for over 10 years. Thats the best way of getting your sealer to stick. Its more work to do it right. But chances are it will still be on your car 10 years down the road. Remember if that first layer dosen't stick then everything that is put on over it will come off also!
One thing about this product. Its all made by the same manufactorer and sold to PPG, Du Pont ect for them to put their lable on it.

 

[Drop Top]

For someone who knows what they are doing. There are no draw backs at all. I do compleat bodys all the time. You just have to know how its done and don't try to do the whole thing at one time. This cleans the metal at the same time as etching it. If the metal is not really clean then chances are the self etching primer wont stick eather. This stuff will take off surface rust also. If it will remove that it will remove any and all dirt and oil that gets on it from your hands. This is the first and one of the most important steps you need to do. The people that don't do this step are just lazy or just don't really know what is going on. Self etching primer is great for your daily driver or a piece of equipment. But on a show vehical its a wast of money. I remember a guy brought back a hood that I had blasted. His dog marked it for him before he had a chance to get it primed. It had rusted in that area. I took some metal etch and a 3M scotch bright pad to it. It took all the rust off of it. I ended up doing the whole hood for him and putting a sealer on it also. I used DP40 from PPG for the sealer in those days.

 

[YBLEGL]

droptop have you tried the new Deltron line of sealers and primers we use them at work and so far I love them they dont shrink at all and dry fast. And the sealer will cover 180 scratches and the primer is a real high build it covers 80 grit in a coat or 2, not the best way to do stuff my work does hack alot and me being the painter these new products help me get work done alot faster and easier. We used to use DP and this stuff is alot better.

 

[Drop Top]

Sence PPG had to quit making the DP line and started the DPLF line its not as good as it used to be. By the way the LF means Lead Free. The lead is what made it a good product. I now use the VP line of sealers made by Valspar. I've had very good resluts with it. It reminds me alot of the DP sealers. I wont mind using PPG's line of Deltron primers, but I have a mato. If it works. Don't fix it. The Valspar line of primers are a little bit cheaper and goes just as far. If I have a customer that insists on useing all PPG I will look into it. I still like to use PPG's base coat for my muscle car restorations though. Their colors are right on and cover very well. I just wish it layed down better.

 

[YBLEGL]

try using that DBC 500 it lays down alot better with that.

 

[Drop Top]

Thanks for the tip. I'll try that next time!

 

[YBLEGL]

meant to ask also do you guys spray water based over in cali at all, ive heard you do? If so how does it spray compared to urethane ??

 

[Drop Top]

They tried pushing water based about 6 years ago. The first time I used it, this is what happened. It went on great its gloss was good but not great. It dried rather quickly. When it came time to clean my gun I through it away. I used a water basied primer to seal over a problem area once and it helped and I could clean up my gun afterwords. But the local paint stores don't even carry it anymore. I don't hear anything about it eather for that mater. Its hard to throw away a $500.00 gun after one use. Paint jobs could get expensive. I know the owner of a local Macco and all he uses is Nason paint and none of its water based.

 

[YBLEGL]

so it had a long run hehe =) Well I guess that answers my question guess I wont ever be spraying that in my lifetime. BTW I talked to my paint rep hes going to give me some new Iawata gun to Demo for a month and see how I like it, hes also giving me a few gallons of Global clear 894 for my show cars says its the best better then 893 alot more shine have u sprayed that if so how is it ??

 

[Drop Top]

I've never used the Globle line of clear at all. I'm fixing a little boo-boo on the bumper of a 69 GTO Judge right now. The store I buy from was out of the Valspar and the HOK clear that I've been useing. (Said they are having some trouble with it right now, and wouldn't elaborate any more on it). But he gave me some new DePont clear to use. Said I would like it better and it would color sand and polish better. Its against my better judgment but I'm going to try it and see. It's just a bumper.

 

[Drop Top]

Sorry I forgot to mention. I checked on the price of the Iwata gun. He said it lists for over $475.00. But he would sell it to me for around $380.00. Then tax on top of that. Then don't forget the cost to ship it from here to you. Just for you to compare prices.

 

[YBLEGL]

well im gonna see how I like demoing it first then go from their but my paint rep told me 450 plus tax so you are getting a better deal. shouldnt be more then 10 bucks to ship it. But ill give it a try who knows I might love it over my sata's.