Ok guys just trying to brain storm the last couple of days. Why is the 84-85 gn's slower then the 86-87 gn's? One of the major factors I think is the intercooler but there is a simple fix to this. Running a Alky kit pretty much eliminates the need for a intercooler. I know the intercooler still cools the air more and then if they inject alky on top of that it will cool even more but im pretty sure with us spraying alky on our hotair cars we are making a huge difference in intake air temps and is putting us close to the air temps if not cooler then the stock 87 intercooler. With this being said lets move on to the rest of the motor. Another factor and I think this is the biggest one of all is the intake. The stock intake sucks period. Yes it was designed for alky injection but it still sucks. If you put the 84 intake next to the 87 intake there is a major difference that you can see. I currently have my intake gutted and ported and im about to send it off and have more work done to it because I know there is more room for improvement. If you think about the design of the 2 intakes clearly the 87 intake is better designed but we are limited to where the turbo is located and how it feeds the air intake the intake. I messured last night from where the turbo seats to where the bottom of my intake plate is and its 2 1/8 inches. So once the air leaves the turbo is pretty much hitting a flat surface. If you think about how the air is disturbed right there going into the intake that’s a big deal. The 87 intake comes right threw the throttle body and has a nice curve on the plenum into a nice big open intake. As far as the long block it’s the same as the 87 with a few minor casting differences. The heads are the same as well. Now lets move to the turbo. We can get turbos pretty much as big as we need and will support us to the low 10’s but im not going to get into that. Lets talk downpipes. Mease made a 3inch dp and you can get 2 ½ dp so that is not a factor but there is a little difference in the bends of the dp but that not going to make a difference. Lets talk headers. Poston and ATR made good headers for our cars so thats not a factor except maybe spool up since we have to use a up-pipe to connect to the turbo but atr and other companys make good up-pipes. Lets talk the air inlet. There are cold air kits with big inlets so that’s not a factor in my eyes. Ok lets talk throttle bodies we can get 62mm tb for our cars and the 87s have been in the 9’s with 62mm tb. So what does all this come down to. I think it comes down to the intake. Just wondering what you all think. Right now I ran 12.6 @107 with a 1.68 60 and I didn’t get to do any tunning. I think I could have run 11.99 on the stock heads but I wont know now that I lifted a head and im going with different heads. Please let me know what you all think on this topic.
Why Are HotAir Cars Slow?
- Thread starter Boost231
- Start date
imjoesnuffy
I just break stuff!
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2005
Biggest problem is all of the little problems.
1. Turbos- We can't get anything near the CFM flow of the intercooled turbos. TA 33 is the biggest common I believe for the HA cars.
2. Intake- You hit the nail on the head with that dissection.
3. DP- Until you can get the 90 degree bend out of the elbow on the turbo it will not ever be close.
4. Colder Air- More fuel to burn, Alcohol helps tremendously, but not as much as a colder air charge getting sprayed with Alky.
My 2 cents.
1. Turbos- We can't get anything near the CFM flow of the intercooled turbos. TA 33 is the biggest common I believe for the HA cars.
2. Intake- You hit the nail on the head with that dissection.
3. DP- Until you can get the 90 degree bend out of the elbow on the turbo it will not ever be close.
4. Colder Air- More fuel to burn, Alcohol helps tremendously, but not as much as a colder air charge getting sprayed with Alky.
My 2 cents.
well
well as far as the turbo there are other ways of getting around the Ta-33 i sent my stock adapter to limited and they took a ta-54 and welded it on there to the correct messurement so now i have a ta-54 on my hotair car so the turbo is not a concern. as far as the outlet with the mease dp i dont see it being that being a big deal as the bend is not that sharp and it doesnt use the stock elbow anymore. yes it could effect some but what maybe .1 in the quarter. as far as the intercooler i agree that our hot air on alky wont cool as well as a intercooler on alky but i think i gets us close to what a stock intercoold car does if not cooler. just trying to figure it out. please let me know what you think
Boost231
well as far as the turbo there are other ways of getting around the Ta-33 i sent my stock adapter to limited and they took a ta-54 and welded it on there to the correct messurement so now i have a ta-54 on my hotair car so the turbo is not a concern. as far as the outlet with the mease dp i dont see it being that being a big deal as the bend is not that sharp and it doesnt use the stock elbow anymore. yes it could effect some but what maybe .1 in the quarter. as far as the intercooler i agree that our hot air on alky wont cool as well as a intercooler on alky but i think i gets us close to what a stock intercoold car does if not cooler. just trying to figure it out. please let me know what you think
Boost231
imjoesnuffy
I just break stuff!
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2005
Lee Thompson would be the guy to get some input from. He has taken Hot Air cars as far as they will go. He is now doing well with the 86/87 setup. Wealth of knowledge on the subject, I could only hope to learn half as much as he has probably forgotten about these cars.
well
well i would like to hear some input as well. thats why i start this thread. maybe someone can shine some light on some of this. and saying lee thompson has taking hotairs as far as they will go is going alittle far i would say. not bashing lee but there is always room to go faster.
well i would like to hear some input as well. thats why i start this thread. maybe someone can shine some light on some of this. and saying lee thompson has taking hotairs as far as they will go is going alittle far i would say. not bashing lee but there is always room to go faster.
forcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
- Joined
- May 26, 2002
There are afew hot air cars on this board that have downpipes that eliminate the elbow (which on an 86/87 is not a restriction until 11's), custom gutted intakes (some intercooled), bigger turbos, TB's, and heads/cam, and they are still slower than a stock 86/87 with simple bolt ons (stock turbo). I still don't think some of the restrictions you guys make such a big deal out of are as bad as you think. The lack of these parts seem to be a cover up for a poor combination or bad tune. As far as the intake goes, each runner only has to flow as much as the runner in the head. I don't think the intake flows less than the head. I would like to see back to back testing with a 12 to 13 sec car with stock heads(which most here are) on the dyno, or at the track with the same boost level comparing a stock intake and a gutted intake. I think a ported stock elbow with a nice mandrel bent 2 3/4" DP is enough for most cars here. The throttle body needs to be the same size if not bigger than the compressor wheel if mounted before the turbo. On an intercooled car, it is pressurized, so a stocker will go in the nines, so bigger is a waste for 86/87, but not 84/85.
It is all in the combination and tune. I went 12.58@106 with all stock parts back in 2001. There are no magical parts with these cars. An intake will not drop 2 seconds, neither will a downpipe. If you are running an intercooler, and a modified intake using an 86/87 Doghouse, then you have the same set up as an 86/87, just with the turbo in the back. It should run about the same as an equally modified 86/87. I am not trying to bring anybody down, I just see alot of parts, and alot of excuses. A list of parts is not impressive, a timeslip is.
It is all in the combination and tune. I went 12.58@106 with all stock parts back in 2001. There are no magical parts with these cars. An intake will not drop 2 seconds, neither will a downpipe. If you are running an intercooler, and a modified intake using an 86/87 Doghouse, then you have the same set up as an 86/87, just with the turbo in the back. It should run about the same as an equally modified 86/87. I am not trying to bring anybody down, I just see alot of parts, and alot of excuses. A list of parts is not impressive, a timeslip is.
yes
first thing lets try to keep this about hotair cars without intercoolers as intercooler hotairs is another topic. also i would say true about what you posted its alot in the tune and just throwing parts at a car isnt going to make it fast. i have yet to put alot of tunning into my car as its been down for a full restro and when i did start to tune i lifted a head and now im going with different heads. With that being said since im going to get better flowing heads i think it comes down to my intake not being able to keep up with my heads.
first thing lets try to keep this about hotair cars without intercoolers as intercooler hotairs is another topic. also i would say true about what you posted its alot in the tune and just throwing parts at a car isnt going to make it fast. i have yet to put alot of tunning into my car as its been down for a full restro and when i did start to tune i lifted a head and now im going with different heads. With that being said since im going to get better flowing heads i think it comes down to my intake not being able to keep up with my heads.
You've pretty much got a grip on the why's. The only way you, me, or anybody else is going break new ground is if you start shuffleing some tubing around and get that turbo mounted somewheres where you can make it more efficient for what we're wanting to do, and, get the intake chopped up so it flows better. But, once you've taken the time and expense to do that... why not just go with the 86/87 intake and header setup? and.. what the heck, if your already there, why not intercool it?
Bottom line: If you want replacement and performance parts a'plenty, and, If you want to go faster cheaper (after initial changeover),... Then you'll need to take a rare turbobuick cars powerplant and ditch it for the less rare turbobuick powerplant. Makes sense to me.(kindof). It would actually make more sense to just go build you a strong small block chevy and drop it in. Even if you have a free donor 86/87 setup, your still going to probably pay lots of $$$ to do it right. And replacement and performance parts aren't going to be any where as cheap nor forgiving as a small block chevy.
Me, I'm going to keep my beutiful machine in its stock turbo configuration and enjoy the challenges and learning and success stories that I'll endure with every 10th of a second that I gain along the way. Eventually, I'll hit the "wall". Which doesn't mean I still can't enjoy it, but if I have a craving to go another second faster, I'll go buy a 86/87 turbobuick.
my 3 cents
flame me at will
Bottom line: If you want replacement and performance parts a'plenty, and, If you want to go faster cheaper (after initial changeover),... Then you'll need to take a rare turbobuick cars powerplant and ditch it for the less rare turbobuick powerplant. Makes sense to me.(kindof). It would actually make more sense to just go build you a strong small block chevy and drop it in. Even if you have a free donor 86/87 setup, your still going to probably pay lots of $$$ to do it right. And replacement and performance parts aren't going to be any where as cheap nor forgiving as a small block chevy.
Me, I'm going to keep my beutiful machine in its stock turbo configuration and enjoy the challenges and learning and success stories that I'll endure with every 10th of a second that I gain along the way. Eventually, I'll hit the "wall". Which doesn't mean I still can't enjoy it, but if I have a craving to go another second faster, I'll go buy a 86/87 turbobuick.
my 3 cents
flame me at willsome of us like myself like to keep the stock location turbo and stock looking intake system. i know there is ways around this like converting to the 87 stuff but i and others want to go fast with the hotair setup. i know if i wanted to go 9's i would buy a 86-87 as there is alot of knowledge out there and plunty of people who have been there. i just like the challange of keeping it hot air and going as fast as possible and showing these 84-85's still have some balls if you stick with it. im just trying to get people to brain storm and work toghter and find what works and what doesnt becuase theres not many of us left with true hotair cars.
I'm in there with ya buddy, I appreciate guys like you. I'm definetly going to post results I think are worth mentioning with each step I take.
As you know, there have been a few guys that have reached the 10's with hot air setup. That is absolutely remarkable. I wonder, (and this is something I haven't done, but should, maybe somebody else has and can link me if they have), I wonder exactly at what point some of those individuals (like lee thompson) decided, "ok, this is far as I can go with the hot air configuration because of "this" obstacle". I don't know, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't because of lack of a intercooler. As I stated in my first post in this thread, I'd bet my cleanest pair of dirty undershorts it was because they couldn't do any more with it unless they got that turbo up in front of the engine where size wouldn't be a factor, and getting air in and out of it a lot quicker wouldn't be a factor.
As you know, there have been a few guys that have reached the 10's with hot air setup. That is absolutely remarkable. I wonder, (and this is something I haven't done, but should, maybe somebody else has and can link me if they have), I wonder exactly at what point some of those individuals (like lee thompson) decided, "ok, this is far as I can go with the hot air configuration because of "this" obstacle". I don't know, but I'm willing to bet it wasn't because of lack of a intercooler. As I stated in my first post in this thread, I'd bet my cleanest pair of dirty undershorts it was because they couldn't do any more with it unless they got that turbo up in front of the engine where size wouldn't be a factor, and getting air in and out of it a lot quicker wouldn't be a factor.
I think the biggest limiting part on these motors would be the intake manifold. I also agree with the above post talking about the throttle body being a restriction on a hot air due to it not being under boost pressure like the 86/87. Much more sensitive to causing a restriction when the engine is having to suck the air through a part rather than being forced through under pressure like the intercooled motors. It may be something to look into getting a 70mm TB to work on those cars running turbos with larger inlets than 62mm. But with all cars they are not going to run the numbers with out tuning and track time. Since the hotair crowd does not have as much of a following as the 86/87 its seems there are not enough people pushing the envelope or breaking new ground on what it takes to get these cars into the solid 11-10 sec zone. The intercooled cars have been tuned to death. There are many cars running near 10's with mostly stock parts on factory sealed motors. Once someone overcomes the above mentioned engine differances and is dedicated in tuning to the end (suspension too) then Im sure thesecars will run the times everyone wants. Tuning is the biggest factor.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
Some good info
A word from the experts
A word from the experts
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
In general terms, many of the cars today are faster than before. Some of the reasons are simpler than others. We learn along the way and records are meant to be broken.
A few years ago, no one thought anyone would run much less that a 5 sec ¼ mile either.
In the past, the experts broke new ground and tuned with tools such as: NB O2, EGT, DIY alky, etc. I am in NO WAY suggesting these tools are “not effective” as the records speak for themselves, but, it took a lot longer, with more patience. Today, we have the luxury of more documented experiences, collective reasoning/brainstorming, better aftermarket systems (PAC), better tuning tools (WB, EGT, DS type tools, Closed loop), and, better code writers (TT) than we EVER had before.
For example:
Building a 12 sec HA took some serious track testing with a NB, an old chip and DIY alky. All that was adjustable was the fuel pressure. Think of the testing to get the right nozzle in the DIY alky to get enough and not bog the engine!
Today, the same goal will be achieved much faster with a WB, EGT, TT chip and PAC.
Many people will buy and install parts that are not necessarily the restriction in their set-up and, it is my belief that the restriction is a combination of the system. In most HA set-ups, the restriction is in the combination of the “small” Turbo and tuning. Sure there is things like headers, DP, porting, TB, etc. But these are proven things.
The key (in my mind) to a good HA turbo, is one that is most efficient at low boost levels. If the turbo moves enough air (Say, 850 CFM at low boost), and we will be ahead of the game. The charge will be cooler, and combined with the PAC, it should be a winner.
Now, if someone can make such a beast, than the only thing left is the stock location mount/fitment. I think that one can fit a pretty large turbo in the stock location, if it is done right. It will take a lot of welding and machining, but I bet it can be done. We really need to quit limiting our thinking with the constraints of the stock turbo mount, and, need to think of it more in the sense of a “small variation of mounting in the same location”.
I remember reading one of the experts’ statement in the General section: “11’s Don’t just fall in your lap”. That is an IC expert talking folks. Think about it. It is therefore my belief that the “last of the performance restrictions” is not the intake, but the turbo and the final tune. But than again, I am no expert and have not “been there done that”. :tongue: My $0.02 plus some change. :smile:
Edit:
Since I am sharing my "opinion" here is one last note:
Don’t kid yourself thinking that all IC cars are fast. Sure there a LOTS more fast IC cars compared to HA cars (in numbers), but what percentage of the population is that? Are these DD’s or track cars? More to think about ……….
A few years ago, no one thought anyone would run much less that a 5 sec ¼ mile either.
In the past, the experts broke new ground and tuned with tools such as: NB O2, EGT, DIY alky, etc. I am in NO WAY suggesting these tools are “not effective” as the records speak for themselves, but, it took a lot longer, with more patience. Today, we have the luxury of more documented experiences, collective reasoning/brainstorming, better aftermarket systems (PAC), better tuning tools (WB, EGT, DS type tools, Closed loop), and, better code writers (TT) than we EVER had before.
For example:
Building a 12 sec HA took some serious track testing with a NB, an old chip and DIY alky. All that was adjustable was the fuel pressure. Think of the testing to get the right nozzle in the DIY alky to get enough and not bog the engine!
Today, the same goal will be achieved much faster with a WB, EGT, TT chip and PAC.
Many people will buy and install parts that are not necessarily the restriction in their set-up and, it is my belief that the restriction is a combination of the system. In most HA set-ups, the restriction is in the combination of the “small” Turbo and tuning. Sure there is things like headers, DP, porting, TB, etc. But these are proven things.
The key (in my mind) to a good HA turbo, is one that is most efficient at low boost levels. If the turbo moves enough air (Say, 850 CFM at low boost), and we will be ahead of the game. The charge will be cooler, and combined with the PAC, it should be a winner.
Now, if someone can make such a beast, than the only thing left is the stock location mount/fitment. I think that one can fit a pretty large turbo in the stock location, if it is done right. It will take a lot of welding and machining, but I bet it can be done. We really need to quit limiting our thinking with the constraints of the stock turbo mount, and, need to think of it more in the sense of a “small variation of mounting in the same location”.
I remember reading one of the experts’ statement in the General section: “11’s Don’t just fall in your lap”. That is an IC expert talking folks. Think about it. It is therefore my belief that the “last of the performance restrictions” is not the intake, but the turbo and the final tune. But than again, I am no expert and have not “been there done that”. :tongue: My $0.02 plus some change. :smile:
Edit:
Since I am sharing my "opinion" here is one last note:
Don’t kid yourself thinking that all IC cars are fast. Sure there a LOTS more fast IC cars compared to HA cars (in numbers), but what percentage of the population is that? Are these DD’s or track cars? More to think about ……….
turbo
there are plunty of turbos out there that we can use you just need to send your adapter to limited and have them put it on the turbo and welded it up and what not so it will work. you can get turbos as big as the TA-64 which will take the car to the mid 10's
there are plunty of turbos out there that we can use you just need to send your adapter to limited and have them put it on the turbo and welded it up and what not so it will work. you can get turbos as big as the TA-64 which will take the car to the mid 10's
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
"Can" or "should"?
Edit:
First off, I think this is an EXCELLENT thread and should provoke some great discussions.
The TA-64 is rated at 680 HP
Turbocharger Specifications
Is there anyone who has run this at a "final tune"?
"Can" or "should"?
Edit:
First off, I think this is an EXCELLENT thread and should provoke some great discussions.
The TA-64 is rated at 680 HP
Turbocharger Specifications
Is there anyone who has run this at a "final tune"?
per precision turbos site its capable of 10's not saying it will take a hotair car to the 10's but should be more then enough turbo for us.
I have heard of this before. Does anybody have pictures of one installed in a hot-air? And what about downpipe? I'm assuming you would have to get one custom made?
Does limited have a website? thanks
here
here are a few pics of my turbo with the adapter welded on a Ta-54. also it doesnt change how the turbo sits as you can still use any dp. im running a mease 3in with not fit problem.
here are a few pics of my turbo with the adapter welded on a Ta-54. also it doesnt change how the turbo sits as you can still use any dp. im running a mease 3in with not fit problem.
Jerryl
Tall Unvaccinated Chinese Guy
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2004
Nice. What boost level do you need to run to do this at?
(I just realized through this thread how much I don't know about these cars.
)Edit:
Be sure to match up everything in the assembly. I found some major matching issues with mine.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/170579-engine-builders-how-do-you.html
i cant
i cant answer the question on what boost levels it would take to get that turbo to the 10's as from car to car its going to be different and its really a matter of flow not boost. also as far as matching everything up i agree the better its matched the smoother its going to flow. that why when i get new heads im going to match my intake to my heads and my headers to my heads.
i cant answer the question on what boost levels it would take to get that turbo to the 10's as from car to car its going to be different and its really a matter of flow not boost. also as far as matching everything up i agree the better its matched the smoother its going to flow. that why when i get new heads im going to match my intake to my heads and my headers to my heads.
