When does a front mount become necessary?
- Thread starter Jon01
- Start date
You really do not need a FM to run in the 10's with these cars cause we have innovative guys like Tony DeQuick that make the stock location V4 (21 row) and V4R (27 row and capable of supporting 750hp). Also, besides the FM and the stock location stretch intercoolers there are Liquid intercoolers like the one ATR sells that work just as well as a FM or in some cases better. I know of a guy down here that runs low 10's high 9's with a stock OEM intercooler with a cool box. If you want to put a front mount on your car you will most likely have to upgrade the cooling system (radiator and fans) which will cost about $1k and when you add that with the price of a front mount (new they all sell for about $1k) your gonna have to spend about $2k total. Many have upgraded the cooling system when installing a FM and some still have problems with the car running too hot. Also, if you check Tony's website www.chargedair.com he clearly states that if you intend to have a FM the car should be running better than mid 11's or else you may not see any gains over the stock IC. Check out the intercooler selection guide on the link I posted for more info about FM vs stretch stock location IC.
blackbuick87
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2002
Doesnt a front mount pretty much nix the A/C also?
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
No, but it might cost you a few bucks if you live in a hot area to be able to sit in traffic and idle for a long time on a 100 deg day...I know it cost me. 
There was no V4 available when I bought the V2 but I wish I had one.
There was no V4 available when I bought the V2 but I wish I had one.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Yeah, I hear that all the time...but then, I don't think the EP covers the entire radiator and you may never sit in traffic without moving for 20 minutes on a 100 deg day.
Maybe you do.
Maybe you do.
Go to a track & run back to back to back runs like your running in several classes & watch how consistent the front mount runs then do it with a intercooler that sits under the hood in all that heat..I can promise you heat soak will occur & make a lil difference..I use to run a stock location & could tell the difference after street driving for a lil bit when it warmed up under the hood..now with the V-2 feels like it did when you first started it up all day long..as far as radiator..these cars are pretty old now & probably need some kind of radiator work anyways..mine ran pretty warm with stock location also..I dont know really...I went FM & never regreted.
Brian
Brian
Well for a new 3 core radiator your gonna spend 5-$600 and a good fan kit will run you about $300 new so yeah about $1k . I know there are always ways of doing it a little cheaper, but in the end I think the stock location stretch intercooler is the best bet for the average TR that is street driven 90% of the time and runs 12's or 11's. From what I've heard the ESP front mount is about the best in terms of not blocking air flow to the radiator cause it's a bit smaller than most FMs sold, but new it's about $200 more than a V2 which you can pick up for $900 from CAS.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
The Arizona gang has published their results between the V4 and a front mount and had virtually no problems with reported heak soak as I recall.
A stock IC is good till around 11.80's. Thats what I ran on one anyway.
The V4R is comparable to a FM. I tested on back to back on the same car, same boost. The result was the same mph (125). I do, however, feel that a FM would maybe be benifical after the 130mph range, but I've never been that fast to say absolute.
The V4R is comparable to a FM. I tested on back to back on the same car, same boost. The result was the same mph (125). I do, however, feel that a FM would maybe be benifical after the 130mph range, but I've never been that fast to say absolute.
Originally posted by Steve Wood
Yeah, I hear that all the time...but then, I don't think the EP covers the entire radiator and you may never sit in traffic without moving for 20 minutes on a 100 deg day.
Maybe you do.
That is why it works for me, but it is also about 5 inches thick. If a front mount overheats your car, then you have problems anyway.
I used to think my radiator was still good, the shop said it was blocked about 3/4 of the way. Even though it would run at 160 running down the road. I thought it was doing what it supposed to do. Until I went to the track witha new unit....
I used to run the fan for a good while to cool it off. After the runs I would turn on the fan and walk away, and check on it about 10 minutes later. With the new rad, I can let it run about 3 minutes before the air from the fan is cool.
Your system should have the extra capacity to handle the lower air flow.
Another point... is the stock air pressure kit kept when a front mount is used. I used mine. No sense in letting that air pressure blow down when it hits the restriction of the FM.
Wes
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
Good time for a frount mount....
i'd say that a good time for a front mount intercooler is when you have an extra 700-1000 dollars ...thats what i waited for ...plus i went to the cpt-65 ....so i was just looking at it thinking it was a bottleneck...it may or may not have been ....but to me...i was always going to go to the frount mount ......just had to wait for the cash
i'd say that a good time for a front mount intercooler is when you have an extra 700-1000 dollars ...thats what i waited for ...plus i went to the cpt-65 ....so i was just looking at it thinking it was a bottleneck...it may or may not have been ....but to me...i was always going to go to the frount mount ......just had to wait for the cash
I love these topics.......especially when it comes to cooling system issues. I do not run a front mount, but have had my share things.
First off, I had my radiator recored by a reputable shop. I had a 160 thermostat and an under driven crank pulley. I also had the stock cooling fan. On an 80°+ day, my car was creeping up past 220° on the highway with the a/c off.
That scared the hell out of me, so I decided to analyze a lot of factors. First off, my baffles were missing from in front of the radiator. I fabricated new ones. I also installed my stock crank pulley (to spin the water pump at factory speed). It still ran somewhat hot. I installed a pair of 11" Spal fans with integral shrouds. That did the trick. I drove my car last week when temps here were in the mid 90's. I had the car idling a lot in bumper to bumper traffic and the coolant temp never got over 192°.
My next steps will be adding an external engine oil cooler AND RMI25. I believe with these 2 items I will have no problem dropping the coolant temps another 10°.
Just take a look at the condition of things on your car before adding the front mount. Ask yourself if the car can take it. The stock cooling fan is barely adequate for a stock Buick, let alone one with a front mount. I would highly recommend get some sort of high quality dual fan set up in there AND retaining the air baffles in front of the radiator.
First off, I had my radiator recored by a reputable shop. I had a 160 thermostat and an under driven crank pulley. I also had the stock cooling fan. On an 80°+ day, my car was creeping up past 220° on the highway with the a/c off.
That scared the hell out of me, so I decided to analyze a lot of factors. First off, my baffles were missing from in front of the radiator. I fabricated new ones. I also installed my stock crank pulley (to spin the water pump at factory speed). It still ran somewhat hot. I installed a pair of 11" Spal fans with integral shrouds. That did the trick. I drove my car last week when temps here were in the mid 90's. I had the car idling a lot in bumper to bumper traffic and the coolant temp never got over 192°.
My next steps will be adding an external engine oil cooler AND RMI25. I believe with these 2 items I will have no problem dropping the coolant temps another 10°.
Just take a look at the condition of things on your car before adding the front mount. Ask yourself if the car can take it. The stock cooling fan is barely adequate for a stock Buick, let alone one with a front mount. I would highly recommend get some sort of high quality dual fan set up in there AND retaining the air baffles in front of the radiator.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
The problem is that the stock fan cannot pull air thru a fm that covers the radiator, the ac condensor, and the radiator. The tranny cooler is just incidental.
My car ran 165 degs at 70 mph on a 103 deg day so there was obviously nothing wrong with the basic cooling system other than cool air was not getting to the radiator when parked in a line of traffic.
If 20% of the core had been exposed to direct air flow, I would have had no problems.
Yes, the baffling was retained so that all air that could, did go thru the radiator.
My car might run a bit hotter being bored plus 30, running 9-1 compression, and using R134A freon. I suspect only the latter has any real effect on the temperature. I also know that running the tranny cooler thru the radiator added about 10 degs to the idle temperature.
I never got over 193 this summer so I know that I finally got up to the problem.
I don't feel too bad because the majority of people running V2s or PTE ics have the same problems as I do when they live in similar climates.
Be that as it may, it has been demonstrated by a number of people that there is basically no difference in performance between a front mount and a V4 until way into the tens for most of us. I have also learned that many don't care about facts and they will continue to believe they will make big gains with a fm no matter what the penalties.
My car ran 165 degs at 70 mph on a 103 deg day so there was obviously nothing wrong with the basic cooling system other than cool air was not getting to the radiator when parked in a line of traffic.
If 20% of the core had been exposed to direct air flow, I would have had no problems.
Yes, the baffling was retained so that all air that could, did go thru the radiator.
My car might run a bit hotter being bored plus 30, running 9-1 compression, and using R134A freon. I suspect only the latter has any real effect on the temperature. I also know that running the tranny cooler thru the radiator added about 10 degs to the idle temperature.
I never got over 193 this summer so I know that I finally got up to the problem.
I don't feel too bad because the majority of people running V2s or PTE ics have the same problems as I do when they live in similar climates.
Be that as it may, it has been demonstrated by a number of people that there is basically no difference in performance between a front mount and a V4 until way into the tens for most of us. I have also learned that many don't care about facts and they will continue to believe they will make big gains with a fm no matter what the penalties.
Get a front mount when you have the cash, cooling and think the stock location one will not be sufficient or your hp needs. But honestly, the CAS stock locations are as good as others front mounts.
I run two ram air vents from under the front to the lower part of the radiator. I got them from kirbans and added longer tubing to help my cooling with my CAS V2. I was on the highway for 3 hours and the car never went over 167 with the stock recored radiator and stock fan. It was 45 degrees out though, but 3 hours at 2100 rpm and 70 mph will generate some heat.
If I lived in the south and bought a front mount, I would of just bit it and got the aluminum radiator with the CAS V2 and left everything else alone. Or just get the stock location and no worries.
I run two ram air vents from under the front to the lower part of the radiator. I got them from kirbans and added longer tubing to help my cooling with my CAS V2. I was on the highway for 3 hours and the car never went over 167 with the stock recored radiator and stock fan. It was 45 degrees out though, but 3 hours at 2100 rpm and 70 mph will generate some heat.
If I lived in the south and bought a front mount, I would of just bit it and got the aluminum radiator with the CAS V2 and left everything else alone. Or just get the stock location and no worries.
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2001
So is the consensus that FM will not give anymore performance gains over a v4, and other stock location IC's? For example I run the ATR stock location stretch intercooler(a few years old, i believe it is a 19 row). Does this theory only apply to this particular intercooler(the v4), or to other stock locations to. Also I have heard, of gains up to 4 tenths with FM vs a max of 2 tenths with a stock location, is there any truth to this statement??
Im considering the purchase of a FM in the near future, but see no point if I will not gain any performance, and potentially have to add a dual fan kit(another 250.00) to be able to drive the car on the street without overheating issues. I have been told, FM help reduce turbo lag?? This was not mention at all in this thread, so is there any truth to that??
Shoebox
Im considering the purchase of a FM in the near future, but see no point if I will not gain any performance, and potentially have to add a dual fan kit(another 250.00) to be able to drive the car on the street without overheating issues. I have been told, FM help reduce turbo lag?? This was not mention at all in this thread, so is there any truth to that??
Shoebox
