Update on adding a 2 stage to SMC, and more

[Turbo__Tim]

I have posted this in the tech. area, and remembered I promised to report the results of going to a 2 stage set-up with my SMC kit.

Also I am going to combine the propane kit from Power Imports with my SMC kit. I converted the SMC today to a 2 stage system today. I went with aquamist nozzles.

Using 2 nozzles (1 MM?) one comes on at 5 psi, the other at 15 psi. Due to the better atomization, I am running a 50-50 de-natured water mixture. Early results are promising. I can turn the pump speed all the way up, and am using exactly half the fliud as before when I used 100 percent de-natured.

(Thank you Steve Hill for stressing how important it is to vaporize the mix..)

I don't have many details to give yet. I can't locate my hi boost solenoid so all I can say is I'm at 20 psi, no knock, and pulling hard. No transitional knock either. Egt's were at 1550 at 85 mph. Maybe a little high, but I only had time for a few runs, and may add another nozzle to the second stage, but I'll wait until I can raise boost to 25 psi to tinker with all that...

SMC does not recomend this, since aquamist lines are just plastic. I routed the lines to the (2) to the drivers side of the up pipe, to avoid the intense heat of the turbo.

To do this you will need to get a 1/8" male adapter to come off the SMC steel braided line. Go to a 'Y' connector, and run one line to the up pipe. The other side of the 'Y' feeds a solenoid that is hooked to a Hobbs switch. The output of that solenoid feeds to the up pipe.

Hooked the Hobbs switch to the vacuum line using windshield wiper line, and a 'Y' connector from a local auto parts store. The windshield washer hose is flimsly, and will collapse under vacuum, so I used only enough to make the splice. Located all that near the A/C condensor. Ran the lines around the battery, and across the top of the radiator. The up pipe was too thin to really tap well, so JB Weld got the call there.

Cost about $200 bucks to do this..

I'm going to switch to a 70-30 mix when I add the propane. (see the tech section for information on that) As important it is to cool the intake charge, I believe that some percentage of water is needed to carry the heat out of the combustion chamber after ignition.

I like the idea of redundancy if one system fails as well.

Anyway I'm betting this combination will work just fine.

I'll keep you all posted.

 

[salvageV6]

Did you use an alky. solenoid for the second stage?

Summitt one perhaps?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I used the Aquamist one. Think corrosion is a factor?

 

[87gn-newbee]

I saw a 2 stage alky system on Chuck Leeper's car from SMC or are you talking about something totally different? I thought Steve sold them allready?
Dan

 

[salvageV6]

I know corrosion is a factor. I am going with the NOS (I think) alky. specific solenoid they have listed.

I will be using my DPS pressure switch for very accurate programmable switchpoints.

Soon.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Hmmm, I guess I'll take a 'wait-and-see' approach on the corrosion thing. Pretty sure you are right, though I'm not sure how denatured, at 50%, and lube might do. Should be interesting..

Not as interesting as a Good Dyno story though...

The dms switch is out of my realm.

Hey, you are fast enough, at least let me catch up a little bit!


BTW the nozzel size I am using,...It took 2 minutes, 10 sec. to fill a 12 ounce can, at full pump speed with the SMC. (that's 1 nozzle, remember I'm using 2) By comparison SMC's largest jet filled the can in 32 seconds at full pump speed. Sheesh that's four times the flow! No wonder few people run full pump speed. Even his smallest jet is twice the flow.

So I'm using 2.3 ounces in a 12.5 second run...Another guy reported using exactly 4 oz. per run. I believe he used aquamist as well, same size nozzles, used 4 nozzles.

When you get a chance, try that 12 ounce can thing, and let me know your results? Just for comparison's sake.

I'm getting the idea that Alum heads cool much faster (absorb heat into the water jacket faster) and require much less water vapor to keep temperatures at bay. Thanks..

 

[Lee Thompson]

Nozzles

I am using a homemade dual stage system.
1st stage comes on at 5 psi---1--1mm aquamist nozzle
2nd stage comes on at 15 psi--2--1mm aquamist nozzle
I refill my alky bottle to a preset mark after each run.
6 ozs. per 1/4 mile @ low 11 to high 10's
This is using methanol.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Hehe, thanks for responding Lee, I just read your other post. Also I see you are running 80 psi pressure. I'm using SMC so pump pressures are near the same. This is good information. Hopefully more people will chime in...

I'd love to run Methenol, but I would have to start all over again.

Lee, are you using plastic line to feed the Aquamist nozzles?

Hmmm, what pump?

Maybe I wouldn't have to replace as much as I thought!

 

[Lee Thompson]

?

I am using 4mm plastic lines from Aquamist. I talked to Brad at Georges Imports 816-333-6582. So far so good. Using the Ford F-150 external inline pump. I use Klotz lube (bought at local motorcycle shop).. Don/t know how long this pump will hold up to methanol. (lifetime warrenty) With the system I have, I need 2 hobbs switch,and 2 small nitro solenoids.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Thanks Lee! I'm using the same lubricant....

Gees, If I had it to do all over, I would put a fuel cell in the trunk, and make the same set-up you have.

Maybe after income tax

 

[Tubo Boy]

Just add Nitrous and go all out. Id say 2 passes at 30psi, dual alky, dual injection propane and 3 stages of nitrous with 50, 75, and 175hp jets. Is say low 8 at about 165mph. LOL

 

[salvageV6]

Tim's in the tuning stages. No real numbers to speak of yet....

The DPS switch is a prototype unit I bought from Eric M.

Has a Stage I name here that of course I forget right now.

Uses a pressure transducer you can calibrate on the car and has a display and 5 switches you can use to set and trigger at any boost level you want.

I use it for checking my peak boost in 3rd gear as I made a display that latches the LED's.

I program the 5 switches for 21-25 psi. and can adjust the BSTC exactly where I want it.

You could program a switch to kick in the second nozzle via a solenoid at say 20psi which is what I intend to do.

DPS not cheap but very accurate and I have no idea if and when it will get to the market.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Hey salvage,
It seems that no one is interested in the DPS except for geeks like us (I know, speak for myself). Its just too expensive to build. I do slowly continue to develop it though. I recently added a TPS input so one of the stages is activated by TPS. I can use it to prevent alcohol from spraying unless its over a certain % TPS. It also will activate the pump and/or first stage immediately upon stomping the pedal, which has all but eliminated transitional knock. I originally thought that 3 or 4 stages would be necessary to get the “perfect” alcy curve, but since I added TPS control, 2 stages seems to be plenty. Currently, I can run 30 degrees of timing on 92 octane, 20psi, stock turbo. This is the only way to make power with the stock turbo (that I've found). I can run as high as 30psi (!) on the stock turbo, but the car does not get any faster.

Eric

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Quote by the ever gloating SalvageV6:

Tim's in the tuning stages. No real numbers to speak of yet....

What he really means is that I have numbers, but I'm not real proud of them...

Yes SalvageV6 (aka egghead) is running mid 12's, and I'm at 13.1 at the moment. (both with pump gas and alchy, though egghead cheated a little on the gas thing.

This will change with the 2 stage alchy system, and the installation of a alchy pump that does not quit halfway down the track.

I don't know how fine you need to be with activation points, but what about the 'alchy curve' thing? consider a pulsator?

I wanted to put Aquamists' pulsator on, but at 150 bucks, I decided to see if the denatured will corrode their solenoid, then if it lives, well maybe...

The pulsator (for others information) is a high speed valve that will turn on and off using a (or several) injector pulses as a reference. As the engine rpm's increase, so do the frequency of the valve pulses, delivering an ever increasing amount of alchy (or water) throught the rpm ranges. This would, I believe, work particularly well at the #2-3 shift. Those low rpm's in third really get more alchy than they need.

I also didn't use it because it would only be spraying a quarter of the time (or thereabouts) That I would need to go a bigger jet. I didn't want to do that...

It's all about atomization!

And crushing eggheads.

 

[salvageV6]

Hey Eric! I'm not sure I understand the electronics and mechanics you used to do the TPS triggered switch?

I do get transitional knock sometimes and was going to use 2 stages to start a smaller nozzle lower say 8-9 psi. and then go with a big WOT 15psi trigger for the main flow.

Help me out here understanding how the TPS input works.

I was also thinking of adding another DPS so I can have a 10 LED accurate to within 1psi. boost gauge with memory display and latched by KR or Alky. flow or any other input event.

Almost done with the second generation display.

If you know of any CMOS logic chips that can sink 20ma or so let me know. I think they were all discontinued in the 80's.

Kinda like me.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Its all in the software. There was one A/D input left over (the first position on the relay board). I spliced into the tps output voltage (0-5v), then reprogrammed it so position 5 is adjustable from 0-99%. Whenever #5's threshold is met, relay 5 is activated (I have mine set at about 45%tps).

Here why I did it. In order to get rid of the transitional knock, I had to set the spray to come on at about 2psi so that it had a good flow of alc by the time max boost hit. The problem was, there are many times you cross 2psi in normal driving, or even cruising along at say 90mph. The alc would come on when I didn't need it. Now, with tps control also, its still set to come on at 2psi, but not until tps hits 45% (I have the tps controlled relay connected to the pump itself). Also, with the pump coming on at 45% tps, it is pressurizing much sooner. Then the solenoid opens at 2psi. This is the best setup I've had so far and has eliminated any bogging that might occur by turning on the alc too early.

Eric

 

[salvageV6]

Gotcha Eric. Time for my free upgrade.

Geez Timmy I was being diplomatic.

Cheating, moi? I don't think so Tim! You can never have too much octane even if it is only Sunoco GT100.

Good luck with your tuning. Sounds like you need some Dyno. time.

 

[dem274]

dps

what is a dps switch

 

[salvageV6]

Digital Pressure Switch

Prototype unit.

EricStageI created it.

Kinda cool, very accurate, kinda expensive.

I like mine and use it daily.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

2 Stage?/

The 2 stage on my car was the proto of that idea.. Not aware Steve ever made more than that 1 kit.
When using the SMC pump and ALOT of nozzles, it's a good idea to check ACTUAL operating pressures w/ the full system in operation. My tests show that w/ the single nozzle, supplied w/ the kit, the max PSI is 60. [Tested w/ stabilized 13.5VDC supply]
I have not tried the pump w/ the Aquamist nozzles, and can't comment on the operating pressures.
I have checked the flow volume @ the various speeds,[stock nozzle] and found them to be fairly linear.
Am going to try the 160psi Sureflo pump,[external] and see what happens..