Turbo Buick 3.0 FWD

[turbokinetic]

Hey all I am posting here to learn some things about the Buick V6. I'm working on a project car which is an 84 Buick Century. It came with a 3.0 Buick V6 mounted transverse with a 2 bbl carburetor.

I have installed an intake manifold and turbo system off a 79 Riviera, which is a draw-through setup. Instead of the Quadrajet carb, I used a Rochester TBI fuel injection system.

I have several questions about this engine but the forum will not let me post any pictures, it says something about making 4 posts first.

 

[turbokinetic]

The engine was low-mileage and had not been maintained well at all. The first thing I did was to change the nylon-sprocket timing gear before it crumbled and caused a major problem.

When the original manifold was off the engine to do the 79 turbo manifold install, I noted very little sludge buildup in the block or under the valvecovers. Nothing unusual.

 

[turbokinetic]

After running the engine for 4 or 5 hours, at moderate speeds (has not exceeded 4000 RPM) and moderate boost (has not exceeded 7 PSI) the engine started knocking in the bottom end.

When I took the pan off, there was at least 1 inch of semi-solid SLUDGE in the pan, the oil pickup was clogged almost completely and the pickup-byass was open. The #4 rod bearing was wiped and extruded.

 

[turbokinetic]

All the main and the other 5 rod bearings were undamaged except for some scratching. No wiping or melting, though

I feel sure the sludge pulled into the pump, plugged the filter, and opened the filter bypass. I am afraid it has clogged the oil galleries in the engine.

 

[turbokinetic]

I was able to clean the crankshaft of all aluminum and replace the #4 bearing, as well as all the other rod bearings. Mains looked fine and I could blow air into the filter mount and it would come through all rod journal oil feeds.

Now that I have posted 4 times, here is a picture of the damaged bearings:

The engine runs fine and has 40-50 PSI oil pressure when above idle speed, and 15 to 20 at idle.

I plan to run the engine only enough to get the other issues with the car sorted out and then pull it for a full rebuild.

My main questions relate to the bottom end. I have a complete (but with cracked block) 3.8 from a 1979 Riviera (same engine I got the manifold and turbo from). I want to use the 3.8 crank from this engine in my original block because of the FWD mounting and bellhousing. I expect to need different pistons (pin height different and lower dish for C/R). I know this is a stronger steel crank, too!

Will this work? I would like to get that extra 800 CC out of the engine, that would bring my turbo boost minimum RPM down to a more streetable area. Since this is a draw through / hot air system it needs all the displacement it can get to have any hope of having power!

Next question, windage trays. How high RPM do you have to be running to need a "windage tray" or "crank scraper" in the bottom end? If I am lucky it will see 6000 RPM, eventually.

Do you guys have a source for high volume / high pressure oil pumps? It is made into the timing gear housing on this engine.

Here are a cople of pictures to give you an idea of how this is turning out:

Thanks in advance!!

 

[1dollardog]

I can't answer your questions but a cool idea anyway. Sounds like it should work fine and its a good use of boneyard parts that wouldn't get used any other way. COOL.

 

[turbokinetic]

Glad you like it! Yep I love to use things other people throw away. This car was sold for scrap to start with and the turbo and EFI were available on-hand.

It runs well, but the engine is very sick and will not live much longer without proper rebuild.

I am still hoping to get some advice on the questions. Even if it is to point me to the info somewhere on the site.

Thanks!

 

[1dollardog]

Did the intake bolt up without any problem? I didn't know they would innerchange. I think some of the late 80's early 90's Centurys came with the 3.0 with a sfi set up. I wander if a hot air sfi intake/turbo could be used on one of those engines and use the stock century computer and harness for the injector timing etc... If the stock century injector harness is used on the gn injectors then the computer shouldn't know the difference. I haven't looked at one in years but I think the intakes were set up kind of like the hot air sfi intake just without the turbo inlet hole. Keep us posted on the progress.

 

[turbokinetic]

Yep the intake lined up perfectly. There was some question about that when I started to consider this swap. This is purely a restoration / project car so I don't have to keep it running to have a car to drive. SO I just took both manifolds off and tried it. The first indication that it would work was when the same gaskets set applied to both cars.

I looked and it definately is a 3.0, as evidenced by the "3.0L G" on the block.

They did offer a MPFI 3.0, it had port injectors and a DIS ignition, but the injectors were batch-fire (2 sets of 3, fired alternating like a TBI computer). Did not have a cam sensor.

It had more torque due to the tall manifold but it still was too small in cubic inches to do much good.

I don't understand why GM does things like that. It was not one penney cheaper to make a 3.0 versus a 3.8. They cost exactly the same to manufacture; why not use the 3.8 across the board?

I'm into things that are "different" and a draw-through turbo system with TBI fuel injection setup no less; is definately different. I know I could make a tire shredding monster out of a 3.8 SFI, but making this set of parts I got for nearly nothing work to its fullest, is a fun challenge.

I do plan to increase stroke up to 3.8 by installing a crank from a 3.8. Once again; like the manifold, no one can say for certain if they will exchange. I have to rebuild the 3.0 anyway because it has been damaged by clogged oiling system. It will not take too much time to try that 3.8 crank and see whether it will fit.

When I pull it down, the engine will get the following modifications:

-OEM turbo-spec 3.8 crank (if possible) (increases stroke to get 3.8 L displacement)

-Hypereutectic alloy pistons, shooting for 8:1 CR. Will have to be 3.8 spec for correct wrist-pin height.

-Port the heads, clean up and blend the intake and exhaust ports. Gasket-match intake and heads so ports line up.

-"port" the oiling system to make sure there are no hidden issues with oil flow. I have heard these engines can have significantly different oil PSI spread from #1 main to the rear main.

-High-volume / high pressure oil pump. Shooting for 60 PSI at 5500 RPM. Now oil pressure hits 40 at 2000 RPM but does not go above 40 with increased RPMs.

-IF POSSIBLE roller cam/ lifters from 3800-type engine. (I'm not afraid to modify the block to use roller lifter retaining plate, and I have this set of parts already.)

The existing crankshaft was damaged by oil gallery plugging on #4 rod journal and I made a temporary repair so I could finish the rough tuning of the ECM and repair / test all the other parts of the car. That way when I pull the engine I will have a list of all that needs to be done with the engine out.

If anyone has converted a 3.0 to a 3.8, PLEASE let me know what you had to do on the crank and pistons.

 

[1dollardog]

What did you have to do to the exhaust to lead to the turbo? Did you use something "off the shelf" or did you fab something? How about the oil feed and return for the turbo, how did you do that?

 

[UR50SLO]

If your realy looking to do this setup correctly and have very good results I'd find a wrecked Pontiac GTP 3.8L/Auto trans/harness (98up) and take the gut's out of the super charger and do a turbo setup with it and use HP Tuners to tune it. You'd have a 11sec car very easy.
I'd try and get the entire cradle out of the GTP and I'm willing to bet it would bolt up under your Buick.
You can pick up used engines/harness for under 2000. It'd be cheaper and better engine design than any thing you'd be able to do with the 3.0
You'll never make much power with a draw through turbo setup or be very effecent.
It's cool to use bone yard stuff to do unique stuff with... Just make it worth while to do on the power and drivability side.
~Scott

 

[turbokinetic]

All the fab pictures are here. The exhaust and all oil lines had to be fabricated. Would tell more but got to get to work!

68.209.87.173 - /84_Century/

If the above URL does not work, try again later. It is possible that server is offline periodically during the day.

I appreciate the advice on the GTP engine swap but I have another car for a late model swap... read on...

For this car, I want to use only what I have on hand or can get for nearly nothing. I have the 3.8 crank and roller cam already.

However for my other turbo Century, the 86 T-Type clone, I do plan on building up a turbo-intercooled 3900 VVT engine. It is the "latest and greatest" 60° motor with variable valve timing and 3.9 liters displacement. This will be a fun tuning project indeed. If and when this project gets underway, it'll be on 60°V6.com forum.

With the currently installed 3.2L 60° V6 the car is barely controlable at 13 PSI boost. I have got to get some 1/8,1/4 and 0-60 times for it. Eveyone asks but I haven't taken official measurements.

With the GPS equipment I use at work, I can calculate all of the above stats from each run so long as I go a full 1/4 mile each time.

Will do that before long.

 

[Turbo1dr]

Cool set-up!

Check out the wagon I done a few years ago.

Click --->cutlasscierawagon

 

[turbokinetic]

Wow, your turbo wagon fabrication looks great! It is sad that you scrapped the car though. I do have a title for mine thank goodness.

Also liked your dual-fuel system. It's clear you have a knack for thinking outside the box! Thanks for shring this.

One thing I notice on many turbo systems is the before-turbine O2 sensor. I tried this and had problems with the sensor giving false readings and sensor failures. After moving the sensor to the downpipe, all the problems went away.

Did you have the wagon drivable with the turbo?

Later,
David

 

[steveX]

I`m in the middle of the same project.
The Lesabre T-type Forums • View topic - 3800 S1 TURBOCHARGE / INTERCOOLER /6 SPEED....BLT... w/Pic

Summer is rolling around, so i have to spend all the funds on the Turbobuick. looking forward to complete the FWD turbo project in the middle of this summer.

Sweet build you got going. what transmission are you running? Have you made modification to the motor mounts? you will need it.
It seem like the turbo downpipe will end up around the starter/ac compressor area, on you application. I believe you have the room, but its close. maybe you can wrap the DP.

 

[turbokinetic]

Looks really good! Your car is a brother to a friend's 89 T-Type. Same color and all. I've been trying to talk him into turboing it!

The 3800 is a very strong engine. You will see 400 HP without breaking it, if your tune is good and you don't detonate.

I have pushed a mostly-stock 2.8/ 3.1 hybrid engine to 14 PSI without any problems in my other turbo car. According to the numbers it pushes right at 300 HP. That car has a modified 440T4 trans.

Here's the build:
The Super C, torque steer from Hell!!

And here's how it runs at 8 PSI (up to 13 to 14 now):
YouTube - Modified 2.8l V6

Boost is addictive, you will love it! Everything about it from the sound of the turbo to the headlights-in-the-trees torque will put a smile on your face!

I can't wait to get this Buick motor running again. It was surprisingly strong as a 3.0. With the 258HR roller cam, 3.8 crank, and port work, it should quickly destroy the transmission.

I have a lame 125C trannny. I'm curious wat 6 speed you used?

On my other turbo car (the one linked above), I ripped out the mounts once and put the top of the engine through the air conditioner evaporator case. Lesson learned and better mounts plus a chain installed on the torque strut!

(edited)

Here is the downpipe. A little restrictive but exhaust takes factory rouing.

See 68.209.87.173 - /84_Century/Turbo/ for more unsorted pictures.

Later,
David

 

[Anthony P]

NOS FWD engines

This is a really interesting thread. I have several NOS GM 3.8L FWD engines if they will help in any of your projects. There are 6 engines assembly code NRB as in the pics - four are in the full crate as pictured, two are in a partial crate. There are two others assembly code NBB for the '84 model year.

Quantity of four – Engine Assembly Code 5NRB dated 16 Jul 1985, Block 25526110, uses distributor. Engine is fuel injected w/ Bosch “233” regulator, 0 280 150 217 injectors. Applications included the FWD flat lifter models like the ’84-’85 Buick Century, ’85 Electra, ’85 Park Ave, and others. Medallion in intake manifold has a silver background with a black power 6 symbol above the text “CYL POWER”. Have two others dated 15 Mar 1985, Block 25524139 out of the crate.

Quantity of two – Engine Assembly Code 8FBA, Block 25531617, uses C3I system. Engine is fuel injected. Applications included the FWD 3800 series roller lifter models like the ’88-’90 Buick Electra, and Riviera. I do not have pics of these. They are all the way in the back and there is an Indy chassis above them.

Quantity of two – Engine Assembly Code 1HLA, Block 25532674, uses C3I system. Engine is fuel injected. Applications included the FWD 3800 EV6 series roller lifter like the ’90-’92 Buick Regal and the ’91-’92 Riviera.

Engine are $500 each. Will assist with local pick-up and loading to your own carrier for shipping. Make your own shipping arrangements.

 

[Anthony P]

more pics

here are some more pics...

Heads are 25518445 castings like the turbo regals but probably have different springs...

 

[carl creque]

Location?

Where are the engines located?

 

[steveX]

I'm curious wat 6 speed you used?

I`m using the 6 speed manual shift (F40) from the pontiac G6. You will find the trans behind the 3900 engine. The shifter is connected by two cable for shifting. Its a really nice trans. I was told by friend in Canada this trans will hold 400hp stock. We`ll find out, cause i`m planing to break out the box in the 10`s 800hp range.

My pervious 3800 series III supercharge BLT made 425WHP. VERY SWEET RIDE. I would eat 2004 M5. the car ran 11.78@115mph. this was three years ago. The 4t65e-HD was the choice of trans. I alway had to rebuild the trans at every 30,000 mile from heavy street/strip runs. I`m trying the 6 speed because it will help me transfer more power to the wheel. I will find out if the F40 6 speed is better that the 4t65-e hd.

I don`t want to sound negative here. You should install a 3.8 and join the team T=togrther,E=Everyone,A=archive,M=more.I don`t know any thing about the 3.0 beside general repair. You may need force induction piston. i don`t recall any 3.0 with force induction?.

keep us updated.