transmission question on a 1992 Lesabre 3800

[Scott A.]

My grandmother in-law has been experiencing a problem with her 92 Buick Lesabre with 50k miles. The car has had no major problems since it was new, recently she took it in to have the oil changed and the service manager at the local Buick dealer suggested that she should have the transmission fluid changed (along with the filter). She went ahead and had them change the filter/fluid, and has had a problem ever since.

She said the transmission will 'slip' when the car is cold, most noteable is the car will not go into drive after she backs it out of the garage. She describes the slip as no movement from the car at all as if it was in neutral, and she said it has done this about 4 times since the car was serviced a couple of weeks ago. After she goes into reverse, the car will go back into drive. The car has only been doing this when it is cold. When I drove it, it did not have these symptoms, but about 1 mile away from her home while turning at an intersection @ 20 mph, I felt it slip (like a clutch slip). Once I completed the turn, it did not slip anymore. I could not get the car to do it anymore after that incident. The car is not leaking any transmission fluid, and there is plenty of transmission fluid in it (and it's clean).

I don't pretend to know much about transmissions, but I'm questioning if the filter they replaced is the right one? I have changed transmission filters, and I did not think the job was that difficult, and the only components you dealt with was the filter, pan gasket, and the fluid. Are there different filters used on these transmissions that could do this? Is this transmission computer controlled? Could it be a vacuum leak? 50k miles seems premature for transmission problems to me, especially when the car has had an easy life.

If anybody has any input, I would greatly appreciate it. The problem is intermittent, and seems to be annoying her. I have told her to take it back and tell them that the car didn't do this before, and request they find the problem and fix it since they convinced her the transmission fluid needed to be changed as an maintenance item. Thanks for the help!

 

[WE4]

Very common actually

They( GM FWD's) have a tendency to "burp" ( trapped air ). Fluid level reads one thing then after driving it, they can "burp" and needs more. I will bet it is just low on fluid. Start car in park. Ck fluid level. I bet it is down. Ck the level cold, as it gets hot it expands allowing it to have just a bit more.
Every front wheel drive you do should be driven easy for 2 miles then rechecked as this is common. Ck fluid level and add some if required. The only bad thing here is , the forward clutch does not like this scenario at all. It can hurt it if one time this "problem" happens. Wish you luck......

 

[6PacktoGo]

There are a few things they could have not done or done wrong to cause the problem. If the filter seal either was not changed or the new one was damaged or improperly installed, it may be leaking, and allowing the pump to suck air instead of fluid. Also if the new filter was damaged or improperly installed the same problems could result. When the car and fluid are cold, after setting, and all the fluid has drained back out of the converter, these problems will present themselves. In the situation you describe, once the car has been started and backed out of the garage, the fluid level in the pan may be so low as to allow the pump to suck air, and after the car is shifted to reverse and back again, it has time to recover. A quick test would be to overfill it by a quart or so temporarily. If the problem goes away or diminishes, there is likely a leak at the filter neck.

 

[transfixleo]

To add to what has already been said, these units have a Thermal Blocking Valve that keeps the oil level higher until a certain temperature is reached. Then, unlike on a regular tranny where the fluid level will rise as it heats up this will suddenly drop. The test to see if you have it hot enough to properly check is to pull the stick and pinch it with two fingers. If it is HOT to the touch you are OK. Make sure that you are at least at the full mark. These trannies actually can stand to be overfilled (unlike most trannies) and it helps to keep it cooler and most important it keeps the geartrain bathed in oil. You can go a couple of inches over the HOT full mark woth no problems.

 

[Scott A.]

Update

Thanks for all the responses! I have not go back to check the fluid level yet as suggested. She took the car back to the dealer this week and told them the car was not acting the way it use to. They kept it overnight, when she returned, they told her the transmission had 'major problems', and would cost $1400 to repair! She did not catch all of the details, and was very irritated, as probably anybody would be. Needless to say, I do not think they are going out of their way to help her fix the problem.

Again, I don't know much about these transmission, but how in the world could a transmission like this cost $1400 to rebuild? I've had a TH200 rebuilt before for $350, I've been told the transmission in my 92 Chevy 4x4 (700R4) would run about $800 to rebuild, how could a 92 Buick be so much? I'm beginning to think they quoted her this to get her to 'go away', as they created the problem and do not want to fix it.

Anyways, she wants me to go talk with them. I've been in these situations before with my own cars, and its not pleasant. My first thought is if the transmission needs $1400 to fix, what's wrong with it? Why didn't they notice any problems when they changed the filter and fluid? How would they explain the transmission working fine before they touched it and now needing $1400 afterwords?

Am I wasting my time trying to deal with this problem?

 

[6PacktoGo]

That car probably has a 4T60E in it. It is about 5 times as hard to pull out and put back as any rear wheel drive, even a 4X4. It also has the equivalent of a rear end built inside it, and it has a chain drive similar to an old transfer case. They suck, I don't even do front wheel drive transmissions in my shop, I send them somewhere else.

That being said, I'd take it somewhere else and have it checked before I did anything.

 

[transfixleo]

I'll try this question again and maybe this time I'll get an answer: Suppose you had someone you trust, using the parts you specified or again trusted the opinion of said builders selection; How much would YOU charge to warranty this front wheel overdrive transaxle for one year from the moment the key is turned? I am just asking how much to warranty it, not to buy said parts or pay for labor, overhead, oil, etc. Bear in mind though that however many times it might fail, you would be on tap for paying all of the expenses involved.

 

[Alky V6]

Where I'm from, 1400.00 is real cheap for that transaxle. I would imagine cost of living is different where you live or its been a long time since you've had a trans repaired. The problem your describing sounds like that early design roller clutch. I have seen them fail at around 50,000 miles a few times. It is an intermittent problem at first and gets worse with time. The change in fluid quality (new) may be causing it to act up now. It is a mechanical one-way clutch that relies on the friction of roller bearings jammed between to races. If the friction coefficient has changed with the new fluid, that could explain why the roller clutch is acting up if it is worn. If it is this roller clutch, it has nothing to do with the service that was done. I know this isn't what you want to hear. Of course, as mentioned earlier I'm assuming the fluid level is correct. Another symptom that can let you know if the roller clutch is it is to slightly rev the engine up in park and let it come back to idle a few times. If every once in a while you hear a bang or what sounds like metallic marbles in the transaxle, it's probably the roller clutch. GM does have an updated design for that. Good Luck.

 

[transfixleo]

I would not recommend doing the Rev Test on this tranny as it could CAUSE the original design to frag. If you have however NOTICED the noise then Don could be right about this. Oh, another thing, has anyone here priced the GM Reverse Drum (the stovepipe) for one of these lately? In case anyone doesn't know/do these, this shell fails much like the original 200/200-4R Sun Shell did. Now they came out with a hardened version but the price has TRIPPLED . That puts it well over $200 cost for this hollow tube that probably costs them $0.75. Apparently this is their way of saying we screwed up and want you to pay for the warranty claims we had to pay out.

I am still waiting to find out your warranty only cost on this!

 

[Scott A.]

My dad and I went in to talk to the service manager about it yesterday. I asked what exactly was done to the transmission, and the reply was "it was serviced". I asked exactly what that meant, and was told "you'll have to talk to the mechanic, who won't be here until next week, I'm not a mechanic". I asked why they recommended changing the filter, and was told they recommend that at 50k miles. Then I pulled out the owners manual and asked why it said 100k miles for the conditions the car is driven under, and she said that they don't care what that manual says, they recommend it at 50k miles.

Since we got nowhere with her, we went to the store owner. After about a 15 minute discussion, they agreed to look at it again (3rd time) on Monday. The problem should be easy for them to understand: The transmission worked fine before they "serviced" it, now it has gone downhill all of a sudden. Add to that, the service manager said the filter that was in the transmission was fairly clean, and no shavings were in it. If there were problems before, shouldn't the filter show some indication?

As far as what I would expect a shop to charge to warrant it? Well, the $1400 was the charge for them to rebuild it and only warrant it for 30 days I believe. The service manager said they would rather she buy a $2400 new GM unit with a 1 year warranty I believe rather than spend $1400 for them to do it. I don't know how others would interpret this, but I see this as their way of saying that they are not too confident in their own work in order to stand behind it, and would rather have us go to GM instead of them. If this is the case, then they will not be rebuilding the transmission. Just to guess, if $1400 is a going rate to rebuild these units, I would think an additional $100-$250 to warrant it would be alright.

I'll let you know what happens after this next visit.

 

[Alky V6]

Transfixleo is absolutely right. You don't want to over rev this transaxle in park. It will tear up the early design. If you go back and read my previous reply I wrote slightly rev. I guess I should of put a limit on that. You shouldn't have to go over 1800 rpm to do this test.
About the manuals 100,000 mile recommendation. That is completely meant for the consumer at the time of purchase. The manufacturers are trying to get people to buy their cars. What better way than to state you won't have to do any maintenance on it. You will notice that it's a trend for manufacturers to compete with each other with this outrageous service interval cr@p. After you've bought the car and have 50,000 miles on it, they don't care when you service it. In fact, they probably hope you don't. It just means you'll be in to see them for repairs sooner. As a non-mechanic do you really think that 100,000 miles is a reasonable service interval for a very expensive piece of machinery? Wake up! We recommend to our customers to have their trans serviced every 25,000 miles. We're actually interested in trying to save them some money. If anything 100,000 miles is the life expectancy of this model transaxle, not the service interval. Unless the manufacturer considers replacement of the transaxle the same as servicing it. Mmmm, could be. Also, the roller clutch failure would have to be very advanced to leave debris in the pan.