S2 Busch North engines

[granitestategn]

Hi guys,

First time poster in the S2 area. I live in New England and need to wipe out my bank account (J/K). I have had my GN since new and I love it. I am no where near even maxing out my mostly stock set-up but have a line on a refugee engine from a BGNN car. I have been told it has an aluminum block with aluminum heads. Obviously N/A. It is rumored to be one of the better engines of a bunch they let go when they switched to V-8's. Fairly fresh. I have not seen it and don't know if I can get it. IF I have the opprtunity to pick up this motor, what should I look for as far as what is desireable and what to watch out for. You don't need to start at square one for me ( I hope) because I've already done a lot of searches on this forum and others. I would like to put this in my GN for mostly street use of around 1000 miles per year with some strip duty. The track is 45 minutes from the house, I would not trailer it. I would shoot for a goal of a solid low to mid 10 second car that would be "streetable". This engine would be a long term project with a secondary goal of keeping cost to a resonable level. I know, "Stage II" and "reasonable cost" don't belong in the same sentence. Consider me forewarned. I know RPE does a good job on Buicks so I would probably lean in that direction for machine work and balancing. I know cylinder head chamber volume is a big deal, kind of the more the better. I don't know everything there is to know but I believe all the BGNN cars would be 4.1 L engines. I would think I could use the crank, heads and block. Valves would need to be replaced w/stainless. Run the dry sump or convert to external pump wet sump or Dutt oil system. The intake could be modified for FI or you can get a sheet metal mainifold from Hogan or others. Headers can be a problem ($$$$). Engine management can run into $$$$$. Has anyone run a MAFT Pro w/WB02 on a S2? I know most guys are running more exotic systems but considering the ET's I'd be looking at, I may not need it. I would probably be looking to pick up good used parts from, frankly, guys like you.:wink: Are most BGNN engine blocks aluminum or is cast common, too? What are the pitfalls of running an alum/alum engine on the street? The obvious advantage to aluminum is weight. To my way of thinking, repairability should be another plus. Just a few questions for you guys to mull over. Forgive me if you've had to answer them before. Happy Easter!!

 

[turbodave231]

Well,

If you are considering building your own S2 car, Let me first try and talk you out of it. Your can buy a S2 car way cheaper than you can build one. Even if you shop hard and get great deals, you will conseratively spend upwards of $15,000-20,000 plus the cost of your car.

If you have your mind set on building your own, the S2 block is a great start. Typically the BGN engines are 4.1 blocks with 3.625 or 3.590 cranks.
The only aluminum blocks are TA blocks.....yes there were a couple Brayton engineering aluminum blocks, But I've never heard of them being used in BGN.
You are probably looking at a cast iron S2 block with Alum heads.

The engine could be an even-fire or odd-fire engine. If the engine is an odd-fire engine, the crank and rods will not be useable.

Most guys are running Champion or TA heads. Parts are easier to find, and the parts resemble stock parts. S2 heads require unique intake, exhaust, cam, rockers, valve covers. You better have good fabrication skills or a machinist friend if you intend to use S2 heads.

If you have a good even fire BGN engine, and you intend to use S2 heads, you will need pistons, cam, exhaust valves a converted intake, throttle body adapter, throttle body, headers, downpipe, Lots of $$$$$$$$

None of this stopped me, but I took years to accumulate the parts needed to build my S2 package.

Collectively, there are a lot of experienced guys in this forum who can help you avoid some of the mistakes.........

Dave

 

[granitestategn]

thanks

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised when I was told it had an aluminum block/aluminum heads. I suspect it will be a cast iron block w/alum heads as you have said. That's the problem with third hand information. The guy who is my connection hasn't even seen it yet. I equipped him with a "spotters guide" of sorts with casting numbers, etc but he hasn't been able to see it yet. I would at least like to find out if it's on-center or off-center to start. I would only pursue building it for a turbo application if it makes sense and I can get the whole thing really, really cheap. Mostly because it will cost so much to make the project happen. I hear what you're saying about it being cheaper to buy a finished car rather and do it myself. I've seen it in print a hundred times and don't doubt that it's 100% true. However, I already have a GN and don't want to part with it. I need to pair down the size of the "fleet" as it is. I already have six cars at the house and the garage only holds one (GN). I could find room for an engine, though. We'll see where this all ends up. For all I know, the owner may want big $$ for it or may not want to part with it at all.

 

[GARY HARVEY]

Alum/Alum....

It's (most) likely a iron piece, unless it's from the Indy (Lites) Program and not from the Busch ranks.
They (NASCAR) wouldn't let you run a Alum block in the Busch series. You will have a rare bird indeed.
If you can locate Mr. Jim Wright (used to be with Mr. Brayton) should be able to give you info on the block (if it is indeed Alum).
With a great deal of patience you can do it, sides it will keep you busy. >)= just don't get in too much of a hurry. :biggrin:
Gary

 

[granitestategn]

thanks

Thanks for the infor Gary. I am 99 44/100% sure it was a Busch North engine. I will need to see it first and I guess I'll go from there. Hopefully, this spring. When I get casting numbers and such I'll post them here for everyone. I wan't to find out what it has for a crank, etc before I go nuts.

 

[Mac in SD]

Well,

If you are considering building your own S2 car, Let me first try and talk you out of it. Your can buy a S2 car way cheaper than you can build one. Even if you shop hard and get great deals, you will conseratively spend upwards of $15,000-20,000 plus the cost of your car.

I've got to disagree with Dave, respectfully. A "Stage 2 car" does not have to be an all-out race car with a BS3, T400, and everything else. Sure, it'll cost you the initial investment in the long block, and you'll have to buy a cam, pistons, headers, and get an intake modified, but you can do it for a lot less than $25K. Judicious use of used parts, plus a little patient scrounging and you can do it for less than $10K using S2 heads.

I've done it. And no, I don't drag race like I used to. But lots of guys in SoCal have seen my car, and it runs pretty damned nice, and passes CA smog to boot with 96 lb/hr injectors, a stock (mod) ECM, MAF translator plus and a Bob Bailey Extender Extreme chip. Of course, back then you could get ATR S2 headers for $1k.

Even the chebbie car show guys know its not a stock engine when they see it. S2 heads are wicked looking. ;-)

 

[BAGN]

Stage II Buil-Up Prices cheat sheet . . .
Complete Busch motor (Avg. Estimate) $5000
Turbo Pistons (I found a used set for $200 + New Wrist Pins & had them Coated) Had $400 Total + Rings (or $600 to $900 new)
SFI Balancer & Flexplate (good Luck Finding those used) - Approx $550 New
Turbo Roller Cam w/Lifters - (Used) $500
Machine Work (Very Ruff Estimate) $1200 Could be half or could be double.
Balance, Blue-Print, Deck, Align Hone, Assembly
Converted 4 brl Intake for Fuel Injection - $400
Injectors $400 to $500
90 elbow & Throttle Body - $400 to $600
All Gaskets $300ish
Wet Sump Or Dry Sump??? - $600 w/Dut Oil Pump & Fittings
Deepend Oil Pan for wet-sump $300
Stage II Headers - $1000 (used- If you can find them) or $2000 (new)
.
Most prices reflect Used Items and I'm already over $10,000.00. Once you figure all the nickel and dime stuff and unforseen items, You will have $15,000.00 into it easy. Oh yeah, Dont forget a turbo & fuel system to go with your Stage II/Stage II set-up.
.
I've been building and saving for the last 2 1/2 years and finally can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Even with some of the killer deals, I have over $13,000 in mine & I just set it in the car last week.
.
Good Luck & Keep Us Posted. We always enjoy helping another "CRAZY" Stage II builder with there unforseen issues. :smile:
Chris
.
.
.
Busch Stage II purchase Moto: You don't know that you bought JUNK till you've already bought it.

 

[granitestategn]

thanks

Chris,

I understand where you're coming from on the parts list. This would definitely be a long term project in order to get the "investment" past the "auditor". Of course this project will be all-consuming, including rolling quarters and selling my lunch to someone at work for a couple of bucks to put toward "the engine". Friends will look at me strange and say to each other, " I told you he was a nut". But, when it's all over, I can point to a S2 in my old GN and say "I did it myself". That's worth something, right? I'll be able to take my son into the garage and pop the hood, point to the "big" cube turbo beast and say, " Son, that engine came out of a "real" race car". At which point he'll say, "So?, it's been kicking around this garage for as long as I can remember. What took you so long?" That's when I kick him out and grab the other son and tell him the same thing and he'll say, "Cool, when can I drive it?" And I'll say, "Never, your mom would kill me. You know how she hates this thing."

Does this sound familiar to anyone?:wink:

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Looked at a couple alum blocks.. Discussed with folks that were familar w/ them. NO DICE on pumping a bunch of air into 1...Limit I was told was in the 5-600 HP range. The Indy Lite engine was N/A, and therefore not a turbo design.
I've also seen an alum engine that had low decks, wierd mounting holes all over it, and was generally a mystery to all that looked at it.
Busch engines were usually equipped with the milled heads, to get the comp up. That creates the need for a serious piston dish.
The ASA engines were in the 9:1 area, [larger chambers] and could be more "user friendly", to be put "under pressure"...

Back under my rock..:biggrin:

 

[granitestategn]

Hi Chuck!

Chuck,

Thanks for the info! I believe, from what I've read, that the BGNN engines were 14:1 or so compression ratio. I think most of them would have really small combustion chambers due to milling. I'm not sure if any of the engine builders used high domed pistons with higher volume chambers instead of milling the heads. If anybody knows of any engine builders that did this, it would be nice to know which ones they were. That way if you know so-and-so built the engine, you would at least have a chance of re-using the heads w/o jumping through a lot of S2 hoops. It would be great if this engine were an ASA engine instead of a Bucsh engine, but, unfortunately, it's not. I still need to see this engine. Who knows, maybe it's really a flathead Ford.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

My $.02..

Chuck,

Thanks for the info! I believe, from what I've read, that the BGNN engines were 14:1 or so compression ratio. I think most of them would have really small combustion chambers due to milling. I'm not sure if any of the engine builders used high domed pistons with higher volume chambers instead of milling the heads. If anybody knows of any engine builders that did this, it would be nice to know which ones they were. That way if you know so-and-so built the engine, you would at least have a chance of re-using the heads w/o jumping through a lot of S2 hoops. It would be great if this engine were an ASA engine instead of a Bucsh engine, but, unfortunately, it's not. I still need to see this engine. Who knows, maybe it's really a flathead Ford.

All the BGN engines I've worked on, have had flat tops.
The design of the combustion chamber is such that the pistons do not require a dome, to get hi comp ratios.... A feature well ahead of it's time.

When looking at the heads, pay attention to the exh ports.. Some I've seen, are ported so close to the edge, that a hi psi exh gas may not allow a good seal. NOT good on a turbo engine! [Nor for any engine, for that matter.]
FWIW, we tried to weld some exh ports, to no avail. The port walls are too close to the water jackets. They tended to cave in when the TIG heat was turned up...:frown:
I'd almost choose to use a set of unported heads on a sure enuf street combo. They are cheap enuf, and are available.
That would eliminate the problems that are there w/ ported heads...
Like I said, just my $.02.

 

[BAGN]

. . . your mom would kill me. You know how she hates this thing." . . .

I think a lot of us can agree on that. If my wife knew 1/2 the money & time I spent on this thing, She'd of left my crazy A$$ along time ago?:wink:
.
.
As far as combustion chamber on the heads, Dont worry to much about that. Your gonna need to change pistons anyway. You can make up the differance in the piston dish.
CC

 

[Chuck Leeper]

The problem with..

"As far as combustion chamber on the heads, Dont worry to much about that. Your gonna need to change pistons anyway. You can make up the differance in the piston dish".

that, is the dish requirement becomes so big, with small CC heads, that the ring package is waaay down, into the wrist pin area. If the ring pkg is moved up, it can get too close to the chamber, exposing the top ring to ALOT of heat. It also forces the thickness of the piston to be reduced.....

But, like I said B4.. Just my $.02:biggrin:

 

[granitestategn]

shorter rod length

Can you cheat a little by using a slightly shorter conn rod? I don't know much about pistons. Could you use a shorter rod and move the wrist pin down a bit?

 

[Chuck Leeper]

You could..

Can you cheat a little by using a slightly shorter conn rod? I don't know much about pistons. Could you use a shorter rod and move the wrist pin down a bit?

but, if the rods in the engine you are buying, are a good quality,[Carrillo, etc,] why spend $1200 to get 6 a bit shorter??

 

[granitestategn]

rods

Yeah, I know. That's the part that gets me hung up. I would prefer to use them if they're good. Who makes a piston that can be used with a "standard" length rod that can be dished enough to give 9:1 or so and still not run into ring or wrist pin issues? Diamond, JE, CP?

 

[summit]

I used thick cometics to make up for the milled heads. I think they were almost .090 thick. standard dish in the piston, long rods ,and 3.59 crank. I understand having a car you built and want to keep going with. I had a daily driver at the 11.0 range and was looking at doing a turbo 400, cage, and a new paint job. It was way cheaper in the long run to buy a champion headed stage II car that already had most of what I wanted and finish it out. Took off the champions, bowling green intake, ATR, etc and went back with Stage II's, 9 inch, etc. Added more cage. The stock based stuff brings enough money to pay for the stage II stuff. Sold my old car and came out way ahead. Hiding it all from the wife may not be enough reason to spend an extra 10-15K over the next couple years. After winning quick 16 at Bowling Green the first year out and another few years of fun I sold that car to another guy who was doing the exact same thing. He had a stage II on the stand ready to go in his car and stated that what I was wanting for my car was less than the money he had in his motor and he would be getting a top notch car to go with it. Listen to experience and take advantage of other people's mistakes if possible. Going straight from your 13.0 car to a 10.0 car would justify just starting over with a new car closer to what you are looking to do. It's a long expensive road.

Greg Kring

 

[granitestategn]

I agree

Greg,

Nice name, by the way, but you got shorted a "g" somewhere. I agree that it would be much less expensive to buy rather than build. I'm kind of attached to the old girl (the GN, not my wife). :biggrin: Actually, my wife's been pretty good to me, too. Since I bought the GN off the transporter from the factory a loooong time ago, I'd like to keep it. It would be pretty hard to keep two G-bodys. Unless I got rid of everything else, smowmobile, motorcycles, boat, etc, etc. They're all crap and not worth much, but take up space. I still would have a hard time convincing my wife that I should buy a $15K race car when that costs more than all my other cars are worth put together. I dunno. I probably shouldn't get all wound up until I find out if this motor is available. It has been a pretty good discussion. Thanks to everyone who's contributed. At least if I do end up with this engine, you'll know who I am when I start asking those questions that already have been answered before....somewhere. I read in an earlier thread from the archives the response to "What's the difference between a Stage I and a Stage II engine?" The response (paraphrased) was "One's a headache and one's a money pit." I believe the Stage II was the money pit.

 

[65vette396]

I'll sell you my top notch stage II motored car turn key for much less than you can build on for. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/stage-ii-tech/200314-9-sec-stage-ii-sale.html

$27,000

 

[granitestategn]

too fast

Too fast for me.

Nice car though.