Running Very Rich after T+/msd50s install

[Morkai]

This could be a long one...

Where to start...well, I had 009's and stock maf running pretty good in the car. (stock turbo, stock longblock, walbro340 & AFPR etc) I put on an LS1 maf, T+ (version 6.0 I think), extender chip rev E, msd 50# injectors. Nothing but rich now.

I've gone through weeks of trying this and that and replacing things. I've replaced the plugs a few times (keeps fouling them) new ign module, new accel coil, new GNX style 02 twice, wires ohm out good, new crank pos sensor. I checked the tps for dead spots, tried a tps-tec as well. Took all the injectors out and tested them, one seemed to have a weaker pattern than the rest, so I swapped it with the spare injector that was good. Run lots of xylene through them.

My BLM's are low and 02 is very rich. My extender chip is BSL54A0E, I have the T+ set to on on off off, dips 2,0,0,A Currently at 40# fp hose off, have tried it down to 35# no change.
I don't have any options set in the chip, so 12 is 0.

As to any other questions on #'s, I've made several turbolink recordings in the past few days. I'll post them. I noticed last week (test3.ECM) that once I got it out on the interstate in 60mph cruise it was trying to lean out better. Odd thing I can't figure out is why it won't stay in closed loop. Does it automatically go into open loop if the 02 rich code is thrown?

I've probably forgotten something I've done, but any suggestions are welcomed...thanks in advance.

http://65.5.163.175/test3.ECM
http://65.5.163.175/test4.ECM
http://65.5.163.175/test5.ECM

 

[Mike Licht]

Fuel pressure should be at 45, which maf sensor do you have? where did it come from?
Mike

 

[Morkai]

FP

I had it at 45# originally, lowered it trying to compensate for the richness. I bought the MAF and translator from another board member, supposed to both be new. All I can tell you is it has a white bar code opposite the connector with the # 89873691768 if that helps at all, I could take a picture of it if it would help.

I just tried disconnecteding the ECU and cleaning the connectors on both the chips and harnesses with electrical contact cleaner, seems to have had no effect.

I wish I had a regular 50# chip to try in it, because if the problem is in the chip I can just send it in for an update. I don't know anyone around here with 50's though.

Eric

 

[pacecarta]

hope you find the answer because ive been having same issues with the MSD 50'S (brand new from RTX) and turbotweak chip ( i dont feel its the chip)

changed bunch of things (new gnx o2 ,coil,module,plugs +wires, you name it i changed it , and still low blms (110 -113 first three cells)
lowered FP to 40 and managed a blm of 117 at idle

suspected the maf might have issues even though it read correct at idle so i went to translator and 3" maf and it was the same , only by setting the translator to lean idle did the blms come up (actually close to perfect ) , so the translator helped but that doesnt explain the problem .

last friday I decided to swap back in my 30# greenstripes and the TT chip i had for them . the blms are near perfect with FP at 43 (line off) (all cells on DS) and translator at base setting , so theres no problem with the car and no leaking lines

put the 50s back in and same issues with low blms are back .

 

[Morkai]

frustrated

Yeah, I've read a few rich 50's posts since I have had the problem. It's funny, the 009's that I had were the ones I've always heard anyone talk about running rich, mine were fine. I thought the msd 50's were supposed to be a favorite combo.

My BLM's are sometimes 90, I don't have a 50# chip to try, and can't really afford to send my extender off yet to get it updated. Since it's rev E I can't adjust the BLMs from it. I haven't really noticed any difference from normal to lean idle mode on the T+.

The odd thing was the other day, when I got it into closed loop and was cruising about 60mph, it was trying to go lean and act normal. I don't have the lean cruise set though.

Also, it seems like some WOT bursts tend to make it drop the 02's a bit, sometimes get it to go into closed loop too.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Paul,
Send me a DS file after driving around with the FP at 43 and Translator at its base setting, so I can see how far it's off, and I'll get you fixed up.

Morkai,
You might try some of the 3" settings (even though you have a 3.5") on your Translator. That will usually lean it out some.


50's used to be really lean at low pulsewidths (idle), so we compensated in the chips to get the blm's normal. But recently, in the last year or so, I've run into some that seem to be a lot richer at idle, and bottom out the blm's. I don't know if something has changed in the injector, or if it's a freak thing. Frustrating...

Regards,
Eric

 

[Morkai]

T+

That's something I hadn't thought of, I'll try running the maf base at 3 then 5 and see what happens.

I did think of trying a friends chip for 55's, I know that should make it run lean under normal conditions. If it leaned out then, I still wouldn't know if it was the chip or not though.

I'll jack the FP back to 45# and try 3 on the base....post results later. Tnx

 

[VadersV6]

Welcome to my hell. This is the same problem Ive had since installing the 50's and extender. Ive done all of the things you've mentioned and more. It seems to just be a problem with cell 1. If I give it just the slightest amount of gas, the BLM's will jump to a good range. Keep in mind, this is with FP down to 38. Ive pulled the LS1 MAF and translator, and put on my stock MAF. The BLM's went up a bit all around. The numbers are actually better than they were with my translator set to 10% lean at idle. When I first installed this stuff, my BLM's hit 90 instantly and was blowing smoke and running terrible. The only way to get it working, was to set the translator to 10% lean, set parameter 11 to Zero or 1, and take FP down to 38. I get better o2's at WOT with it at 40psi, but then I get a problem with idle BLM's drifting down and tapping 90, then setting a code 45.
What Ive thought from the beginning, was that the guys who programmed these chips, used a car/cars with 1000 vacuum leaks as the test car, which would explain the extreme rich condition at idle, on a car with little to no vacuum leaks.
If the problem were injectors, the problem would be there across the board. Not just at idle. Its the chip, and there is nothing to convince me otherwise. I would kill to not have to deal with this crap anymore. I had absolutely no BLM spread between idle and cruise with my stock chip and injectors. And these injectors were extremely screwed up....broken o-rings, broken plastic, etc.

 

[Morkai]

BLM

Yeah, I know what you mean, the only way I could EVER get mine to come under 800mv was once in a while at hwy cruise.

I tried setting the maf base to 3, for 3" and it didn't seem to help or not much. Now I give it very little time to learn since I was running around today, but I decided to try 5 for lean idle, and after a few miles it seems to be leaning out.

At first I noticed it was still very rich at idle, then when I gave it any amount of throttle it would start to lean to a more normal level. Now it seems it's doing ok at idle, the 02's on my in-car gauge are bouncing around middle level, if anything it seems to be jumping more to lean now. The BLMs were still very low I think, but it might still be learning. I'll need more driving time to see.

I know my plugs are fouled and missing some causing extra problems with the 02's but I'm not putting ANOTHER set of plugs in to foul until I'm pretty sure it's not fat rich.

 

[Morkai]

BLM

It seems to be trying to run better with the maf base set to 5. Sometimes when I come off the throttle it'll jump back rich, but it'll usually lean back out when you stop. The odd thing is when the 02s are doing ok, the BLM is still at 90, but if you give it a little gas sometimes the 02's will go back to 800+ and the BLM jumps up to 115 or something. It's weird.

But it does normally stay in closed loop now, and the 02's will jump around more, actually get some cross counts. I think the thing was just dumping way too much fuel in on the 3.5" setting.

 

[Brer Rabbit]

might be the problem?

I put 36# injectors in my car last year and It ran real rich at idle, so bad that I didnt even drive it out of the garage. I swapped out every chip that I had thinking that might be the problem with no sucess. I called the tow truck and took it to my buddys shop who called me an hour later and said that I either pinched or shorted out an injector wire, causing it to dump fuel like crazy. He fixed it, I changed the oil and it ran perfect. Hope this helps

 

[wiked87gn]

how about giving mike from Fullthrottle a call on this issue, maybe it is the chip the one causing the problems. i have installed the extender and msd 50's on some cars and i run into the same issue with it running rich and the blms running way low, maybe it is the way he did the chip that causes this problem, any other injectors in combination with the extender and no problems except with the 50's, perhaps somone should call on this and ask him whats going on..

 

[VadersV6]

Originally posted by wiked87gn
perhaps somone should call on this and ask him whats going on..

The test car is full of vacuum leaks.
Last night I reset my cam sensor, and adjusted my crank sensor to the right gap. I did a few other little things in the process. I disconnected the ECM power wire overnight and re-programmed it this morning. I took it to 42lbs line off, and set my BLM parameter to 1. I'm happy to say that my BLM's are at 128 during cruise, and are about 120 at idle. Ive disconnected the power to the ECM a few times, but never for very long. I guess doing it overnight did the trick.
I think the initial low BLM at startup with the new injectors comes from having air in the fuel rails. Given I had to pull the shrader valve to hook up a FP gauge, I have no way of bleeding the lines. These air pockets hit the injectors. The car goes through huge bursts of going major lean, and the computer compensates for it by driving the fuel up off the charts. Now even after the air is out of the rails, this fuel trim is way out of whack, and it will never be right. I think the computer should be cleared again after the rails are purged.

 

[trbojo]

i also have msd 50's and eric's chips, and always seem rich. i also have a part throttle sag/ tip in stumble. wondering about the affect of one on the other.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Joe, email me with some blm info (idle and cruise) and let's see if we can figure it out. It's really rare for 50's to have a tip-stumble.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Morkai]

BLM

Well, good to say that now with the base setting at 5 (3" lean) it seems to be doing better, but the odd thing is my BLM's are still low.

At idle (stop light etc) it'll go from lean to stoic and jump back and forth, but the BLM is 90.

When I am cruising it seems to be 90-100 and trying to stay in the middle 02 range. When I take my foot off the gas in cruise, it'll usually go a little rich, and the BLM jumps over 100 then I think. Odd... Isn't low BLM a sign is trying to lean out the mixture from rich condition?

 

[trbojo]

Eric, i'm waiting to get my trans back. it broke the anchor on the band last year i'll email the info as soon as i get it in. thanks.

 

[trbojo]

ok. got the trans fixed, finally!! shifts great and launches are a blast with the trans brake. anyway, blm is 150 at idle. when you pull out from a stop it dips to 147, then comes back up to 150 at cruise. at light part throttle acceleration, it almost feels like it's not getting any fuel??

 

[Morkai]

Car down..

Well, I have mine torn down right now. Putting a new cam and timing chain in. It's a good thing too, you should see the stock gear that came out of it.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Joe,

For the BLM's to be that high, I would suspect one of the following:

1. Bad MAF, or the MAF has no screens in it (or if it's a Translator, the settings may be incorrect).
2. Fuel pressure gauge is way wrong
3. Big air leak after the MAF somewhere
4. Injectors are flowing way less than they should

Check out a few of those things and see if you find anything. I can make the chip richer, but I think we would be covering up some other problem. I could always send another chip, just to rule out the possibility that I burned the wrong program on it.