running no intercooler

[crazygn]

iam running no intercooler right now and the car fells like a 12sec car, not what i was hoping for but it is out of tune also.

i am running 20psi on a te63 , if it ran say a 12.5 , what would it do with a nice intercooler on it, is no intercooler really killing it that bad.

 

[Ormand]

Check out this site:
Stealth Turbo/Intercooler Calculator
The point of the turbo is to get more air into the engine, in lbs/min. You may have a high pressure from the IC, but if the air into the throttle body is HOT, you aren't getting the higher density that you want. Run the calc above, with and without the IC, and see what it does to the density. Short answer, yes, running with no IC is costing you many horses.

 

[bruce]

It's about the air temp passing the intake valve that matters.

Reguardless of intercooler, at a prolonged idle the manifold will be putting alot of heat into the air. And it takes alot of cool air to actually start to drop the actual MAT temps.. So while intercooler discharge temps., are interesting, they're by far not the whole story. The stock intercooler can in large part be called an interheater, since it in some circumstances is putting heat into the air. For an air to air intercooler to begin to work means LOTS of air flow. At low speed they can act as a thermal flywheel, absorbing some heat, but somewhere along the line they have to shed that heat, either into the passing air stream, or back into the charge air.

For repeated short bursts, none can be better at times, then having one, Allky Injection can closely approximate a F/M, when done correctly.
And the disassociation and reassociation of water/alky adds to the mix, more then just it's cooling effects.

And this is the subject of some multichapter research papers.

It's been cleaned up some since these pics, but here's my I/C delete.

http://home.woh.rr.com/brucesgn/intercoolerdelete/

 

[crazygn]

thanks for that info, and the pictures, it kinda how i have mine now but not alky or intercooler. I just thought that maybe this te63 and home ported heads would do more then this with no intercooler. So your saying that at the track the intercooler would work alot better for a short blast but oin the street and every day driving the intercooler will heat up also.

this thing has to fell faster then 12's in a 2460 lb car and a 63 on it. maybe its really out of tune also , and i am having some boost problems

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by crazygn
thanks for that info, and the pictures, it kinda how i have mine now but not alky or intercooler. I just thought that maybe this te63 and home ported heads would do more then this with no intercooler. So your saying that at the track the intercooler would work alot better for a short blast but oin the street and every day driving the intercooler will heat up also.

this thing has to fell faster then 12's in a 2460 lb car and a 63 on it. maybe its really out of tune also , and i am having some boost problems

IMO, your out of injector.
What for fuel pump are you running?.

If the tune and boost ain't right, you not going to go anywhere very fast.

 

[crazygn]

i really want my boost down about 16psi, i have a big areomotive pump, i really need bigger injectors.

i didnt check my o2's yet but i have alot of black carbon on the tail pipe like it would be running rich. this over boost problem is really killing me now, i need this boost lower so i can run these injectors for now.

 

[6SENSE]

Overboost problem? Are you running a HD WG? Wont be able to get boost down after a certain point (maybe 18psi; probably varies).

 

[crazygn]

iam running a reace gate on the down pipe, iam going to try another one and see what happens. aways something

 

[Ormand]

Bruce's post is partly correct. The alky will give you some cooling, and can approximate the cooling you would get with an IC. What he's not saying is that the IC does it pretty much for free, using air passing through the engine compartment. The alky will cool too, and will do it even if there is an intercooler. So if you don't want to hassle with alky injection, go with the intercooler. If you want max performance, go with an intercooler, AND alky injection. If you have some religious objection to intercoolers, then use just the alky. You can play with the calculator to see how often the stock IC is actually an "interheater". (Bruce maybe got that from Corky Bell) ONLY when the air leaving the turbo is cooler than the IC will the IC be an interheater. (laws of thermo) That pretty much means only at low boost or non-boost conditions. You might also run a check to see how much alky you have to inject to get a given amount of cooling. Alcolhols do absorb a lot of heat when they evaporate, but given that the air flow is more than ten times the fuel flow, and the alky is probably just a fraction of the total fuel flow, the cooling effect is a little limited. Unless you run the engine on straight alky, and then you will get maybe ten miles per gallon.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
Bruce's post is partly correct.

LOL,
I'll refrain from comment, other then to say, you might reread what you posted.

 

[Ormand]

I reread what I posted, and it still seems correct. There are a few, very few, conditions when an intercooler will adversely affect performance. There are many issues which make alcohol injection problematic. An intercooler is basically "free" horsepower. There have been many, many "multichapter research papers" written on the advantages of using an intercooler. There are a number of OEM applications with intercoolers. There are few, if any, with alcolhol injection. But of course, Bruce knows more than all the ENGINEERS in the world. My turn to LOL.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
I reread what I posted, and it still seems correct. There are a few, very few, conditions when an intercooler will adversely affect performance. There are many issues which make alcohol injection problematic. An intercooler is basically "free" horsepower. There have been many, many "multichapter research papers" written on the advantages of using an intercooler. There are a number of OEM applications with intercoolers. There are few, if any, with alcolhol injection. But of course, Bruce knows more than all the ENGINEERS in the world. My turn to LOL.

Your just incredibly funny today.
Basically Free, just as long as you ignore what's actually going on.

No not all the engineers in the world, but more then some, and again this is the type of statement that reduces your credibility.

Try goggling for NACA, and incylinder cooling, and Sir Harry Ricardo, and get back to me about your other misleading statement about alky, statement.

Got like how you try and get personal, rather then be objective, and accurate.

And on a side note:
Interestingly enough in some applications where they run so much boost that they can't even begin to get enough intercooler to make a difference, and then water/alky is not only the better answer, it's the only one.

BTW, where in his RX7 are you going to mount enough intercooler to really help him out, that's *Basically Free*?.

 

[crazygn]

BTW, where in his RX7 are you going to mount enough intercooler to really help him out, that's *Basically Free*?.


i hear that

is alky hard to tune, would i still run cam2 or just not need it any more, might try it with out the intercooler first

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by crazygn
BTW, where in his RX7 are you going to mount enough intercooler to really help him out, that's *Basically Free*?.

is alky hard to tune, would i still run cam2 or just not need it any more, might try it with out the intercooler first

Again, getting back to the actual topic, is what REALLY matters is the temp., of the air going past the intake valve. ie the MAT temp., the air coming out of the *intercooler* even at -100dF doesn't mean a thing if the engine still has a MAT of 160dF.

Not to mention that the low end aromatics don't start to boil off until ~130dF, which is just the BEGINNING of when the fuel really starts to vaporize. Feel perfectly free to read up on fuel droplet size, and combustion process.


Drill and tap a hole in your upper plenum, so that you can monitor what MATs you are running. Then add alky as necessary, there are several good kits out for doing that, and you can even home brew one, after reading the Alky Board here.

BTW, I'm just back in from doing some tuning on my car. You know the one with the I/C delete. Running 93, and NO WATER/ ALKY, at 20-23 PSI I'm getting about 2-3d of knock. And that's with MATs in the neighborhood of 200dF. Once I get the water/alky on, and dialed in, it should be even more fun. BTW, if your running the stock ecm it's worth while to populate the MAT timing correction table, bias, and then calibrate it.

 

[Ormand]

I have tried goggling for information, and all I saw was fish. On the other hand, when I Google, I get lots of info. Some of it is more recent than Sir Harry, and NACA, which are pretty ancient tech. Guess that makes them easier to understand than some of the recent stuff that requires thermo, heat transfer, and logic. So, if I put a MAT cooler on my car, spraying some coolant right in front of the MAT sensor, it will make the car run better? I'm sure it would let me CLAIM to have more cooling than with an IC. When Ricardo was king, the fastest cars, even on the race courses, were slower than many street cars today, so there HAVE been some things learned since "the day". And yes, the density at the intake valve is the critical factor. Is that where you measure temp these days?
Crazy Gn asked if he was missing some power because of having no intercooler. But if he has no room for an IC, I'm sure he can fit in an extra injector or two, another pump, some more fuel line, and the controls to make it work. And it will NEVER require tuning. On the other hand, IF he can fit an IC, it will sit there, passively cooling, without requiring periodic additions of fuel, and without affecting distribution.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
Some of it is more recent than Sir Harry, and NACA, which are pretty ancient tech.

The Physics of the matter are a constant. It's the new and improved texts based on opinion, rather then the original research that are flawed.

Did you catch the part in the NACA papers where they discuss Ion Sensing Technology?, ya, ancient tech, that's just now getting implimented. Yep, so ancient that it's taken 70 years to impliment it.

And yes, there are droplets of alky in a stream of alky, dugh, like that's a surprise. But, that just means calibrating things to account for that. It doesn't negate the effects of the droplets.
All that means is that there is a possible error, and that just means like I said taking that into account in the tune. If the actual MAT is 140 or 160 isn't the issue, the issue is the effectiveness of the alky injection.

Adding an intercooler, doesn't always mean a gain of many HP. So you statment of it costing him *many HP* is at least partically misleading, if not flagrantly wrong.

 

[crazygn]

i dont have much room but i was think a nice air to water intercooler , but they cost a lot of money and that one thing i dont have.

I really want to look into this alky set up now, if you guys have any sites that will say how to make one or anything please post it up. I have a te63 and 42.5 injectors so i really need that first but this will be next for sure.

 

[HGturboT]

Hey Bruce
Do you have a web site or more pics? I noticed the coil on plug set up you have, looks good
Thanks

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by HGturboT
Hey Bruce
Do you have a web site or more pics? I noticed the coil on plug set up you have, looks good
Thanks

I've been doing a number of updates to the car, and once I get things caught up, intend to update my web pages.

Getting the Syclone (749) ecm on, has been a rather time consuming project, and it's just now, really *right*.

The 749 has timing and fuel corrections based on MAT, BTW. <G>

If you want to optimise the 148 for I/C'less, it can be done. It just looks like no one's bothered to, or for that matter really worked on getting it right for the stock application. It's easier to just say the loses are there, from charge heating rather then actually do something. A test procedure, a WB, EGT, are all that's needed, then one can taylor their chip to actually get things more correct.

 

[49-blues]

Crazy gn re you still running that kenne bell torque converter?if so how has it worked out for you?