Request to Racetronix

[Reggie West]

After installing a new fuel pump and one of your hot wire kits I am impressed with the quality of the parts. The car I put this on had ground issues though so I had to run a ground wire from the battery to the pump.

Why not sell a kit that will do both? A hot wire for the fuel pump and a nice heavy ground from the battery to the pump? With proper connectors it would be a snap to install too.

Just a thought.

 

[Racetronix]

After installing a new fuel pump and one of your hot wire kits I am impressed with the quality of the parts. The car I put this on had ground issues though so I had to run a ground wire from the battery to the pump.

Why not sell a kit that will do both? A hot wire for the fuel pump and a nice heavy ground from the battery to the pump? With proper connectors it would be a snap to install too.

Just a thought.

If you have ground issues it would be wise to upgrade the body grounds so that all electrical items benefit not just the pump. We know there is one vendor who pushes this idea but we do not agree with this approach. If you have good body grounds the cross-sectional area of the frame carries more than enough current to support devices such as a fuel pump with very little loss.

 

[Nick Micale]

..... We know there is one vendor who pushes this idea but we do not agree with this approach........

Do not know if I am the vendor Jack is referring to, but I have dealt with MANY fuel pump issues due to improper grounds, especially fuel pumps.

If Jack, or anyone, thinks the frame is a good enough conductor path for the pump ground to the battery, just do an ohm check and you will be un-pleasantly surprised.

ALL GROUNDS MUST RETURN TO THE BATTERY FOR PROPER OPERATION. A 10 ga. supply wire must have a 10 ga. ground wire to pass all the power in a given circuit.

Jack, I do not know if you have worked on a few thousand GN's over the past 25 years, but the real world is MUCH different from your test bench, and I have experienced many disasters due to faulty fuel delivery, and lots of it due to faulty wiring. Just a hot wire kit is NOT the complete solution, the pump MUST have a proper ground circuit as well.

The factory wiring was hardly able to provide adequate fuel for stock HP cars, and after 25 years it is less than adequate, and it is not smart to depend on it when performance is increased.

Obviously I am not the only one that has seen this issue, since Reggie started this thread for this reason!

 

[Racetronix]

If Jack, or anyone, thinks the frame is a good enough conductor path for the pump ground to the battery, just do an ohm check and you will be un-pleasantly surprised.
ALL GROUNDS MUST RETURN TO THE BATTERY FOR PROPER OPERATION. A 10 ga. supply wire must have a 10 ga. ground wire to pass all the power in a given circuit.

Nick, there are a few ways to fix this problem without the need for dedicated grounds to each system component. If the alternator, battery ground and pump ground are all wired properly there is no discernible advantage to running a dedicated wire. I might add that if your theory was correct the proper approach would be to have the ground running to the alternator body for maximum voltage / performance.

To each their own...

 

[Nick Micale]

Jack, I do know there may be more than one solution to a problem, but it still have to be within the basic laws of physics.

You certainly have an opinion that differs from mine, but I try to follow known and proven methods. Grounds going to the battery is not my "theory", but one of the laws you apparently choose to shun?

According to my electrical "experts", they follow 2 simple rules.

First, nothing goes IN that cannot come out.

Second, electricity goes nowhere it is NOT invited.

Since most of my work over the years on turbo Buicks has been to provide an increase in performance, and we are working on an "electric" car according to Red Armstrong, it follows we need to provide for the increased electrical requirements.

The battery is the source of electrical power, NOT the alternator.

Yes, a ground may be OK at the alternator, but it is not optimum.

I agree, it is not necessary to run every ground back to the battery, but in the performance arena we use a master ground block that is connected DIRECTLY to the battery.

Sorry you are not open to other "thinking", but I will continue to follow the methods on building performance that I have experienced, or learned, from others with more experience than myself.

 

[QWKRTNU]

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[QWKRTNU]

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[Boost231]

great info for sure, would be nice if the harness thats shipped with the pump wasn't 4 1/2 " long when it need to be like 3". Iv'e had the connectors pull apart due to the hard bend it has to make. Like reggie posted would be nice to have a ground upgrade harness made for the pump. Maybe i can figure out the way to do it and sell them

 

[Reggie West]

Sounds good to me Mike. Maybe someone should come up with a hot wire and ground kit. I would use it.

I understand as stated by Racetronix what should work but grounds have been an issue on these cars especially. I don't know if my ground wire fix was good enough or not. I soldered the ground wire going to the tank ground to the wire I ran from the battery. After further thought I'm wondering if I should have cut and spliced the ground wire right out of the fuel pump.

This was on Woody Beals car and he bought a new fuel pump, sender and hot wire kit from Racetronix and I installed it. It occurred to me how easy it would be to run a heavy ground wire off of the battery to the pump and using the new plugs supplied in the kit. This would be a great selling point for Racetronix. While I am thinking about it, the supplied crush ring that seals the pump in the tank was not the correct size. It would not catch and hold at all three points on the top of the tank. I had to use the original ring that was on the tank. Its not a big deal but its feedback I hope is taken for what it is. The hanger, pump,wires and connectors were all really nice.

Part of the reason for doing this ground wire fix to the pump was that the car had ground issues already. I installed an alky kit on the car and I had to splice the ground wire coming out of the MAP sensor and run it to the battery in order for the pump to work correctly. So I knew I had ground problems from the start. It took 3 phone calls to Julio and I may have pissed him off by the time I got it right.

Nick thanks for your help on this car, this is the same one I called you on and I still cant figure out the fuel pressure issue. We will be trying a new pressure regulator at this point. I dont like throwing parts at a car to fix it but it is all thats left to do.

I want this to be just honest feedback here and maybe fix the problem.

Thanks

 

[Racetronix]

Jack, I do know there may be more than one solution to a problem, but it still have to be within the basic laws of physics.

You certainly have an opinion that differs from mine, but I try to follow known and proven methods. Grounds going to the battery is not my "theory", but one of the laws you apparently choose to shun?

According to my electrical "experts", they follow 2 simple rules.

First, nothing goes IN that cannot come out.

Second, electricity goes nowhere it is NOT invited.

Since most of my work over the years on turbo Buicks has been to provide an increase in performance, and we are working on an "electric" car according to Red Armstrong, it follows we need to provide for the increased electrical requirements.

The battery is the source of electrical power, NOT the alternator.

Yes, a ground may be OK at the alternator, but it is not optimum.

I agree, it is not necessary to run every ground back to the battery, but in the performance arena we use a master ground block that is connected DIRECTLY to the battery.

Sorry you are not open to other "thinking", but I will continue to follow the methods on building performance that I have experienced, or learned, from others with more experience than myself.

Hi Nick,

I appreciate the fact that you are a respected vendor on TB who has worked on many cars.

I have spent many years testing and developing products for Buicks including my own.

The alternator IS a source of electrical power. When operating, the alternator’s voltage output is higher than at the battery b/c of losses in the + wire and ground path to the battery. If you place more load on the vehicle’s electrical system and rev the engine you will see this voltage differential increase. This is why hotwire kits are wired to the alternator’s output stud where voltage is highest under WOT.

To test this simply turn on some heavy-draw accessories (i.e. headlamps, fan, A/C, rear defog) while the engine is running and rev the engine to 3000RPM+ .
Place a DVM in the following locations:

Alternator + output terminal and it’s case = alternator output voltage
Battery+ and – terminal = battery voltage
Alternator + output and battery + = voltage drop on + feed to battery
Alternator case to battery - = voltage drop on ground path to battery – which includes the motor, starter ground, fender ground and various other factory ground paths.

As I have stated before, the frame of the vehicle is more than adequate to provide a good ground path to the battery and alternator provided good grounds are added between the said components to minimize any voltage-drop. Fuel pumps (which typically draw less than 20 amps) do not require a dedicated ground.

I would rather see a customer upgrade the vehicle’s global grounding system, which will help all voltage-sensitive items such as fuel pumps, ignition systems, injectors etc. than one or two individual items.

If I can find the time, I will put together some pics or videos showing these losses with various loads on the electrical system. In the meantime, people who own a DVM are welcome to run these simple tests themselves. IMO if a voltage drop does not exist there is no sense in adding more wires and weight to the vehicle.

 

[captflash]

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[longball]

^^^^^

looks like someone snuck through the defenses

 

[Pronto]

I decided to run a 10 gauge ground from the rear frame to the front fender. Used a 3/8" stud similar to Caspers ground relocation kit has and the 10 gauge wire with 1/4" wire loom on it. Ran it though the frame and up to the fender ground. Easy enough. Next is to get the harness in and the pump.