Well after researching and pricing both options out, looks like I'm leaning towards the vacuum set. The hydroboost setup with all new parts is going to set me back a little over 320 while the vacuum setup is at 260 not that big of a deal to some but I could use that extra cash to get new stainless braided brake lines. My car is an occasional weekend street car with a few trips to the drag. I don't think I need big boost launches I've been happy with the 4psi launch with my bad powermaster. With that said, the vacuum setup is much simpler to swap. Hope I don't have any regrets.
Question for those with vacuum brakes...
- Thread starter turbocvc
- Start date
I have had Turbo Regals with both the single and the dual diaphragm booster. Both worked fine but I prefered the pedal feel of the dual diaphragm booster. Both avoided the fear of total failure of the powermaster without warning which can happen as it did to me. Just thought I would add my experience in response to your original question.
Dean
Dean
salvageV6
Daily Driver
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I just did a vacuum conversion this week.
Expect 2X-3X the pedal travel of the powermaster before stopping.
And if you use the Caspers billet vacuum block make sure you RTV or loctite the threaded vacuum ports into the body or they will leak and/or whistle.
Make sure you bleed them thoroughly as well.
And good luck swapping the pedal, pull the drivers seat out if you can.
Expect 2X-3X the pedal travel of the powermaster before stopping.
And if you use the Caspers billet vacuum block make sure you RTV or loctite the threaded vacuum ports into the body or they will leak and/or whistle.
Make sure you bleed them thoroughly as well.
And good luck swapping the pedal, pull the drivers seat out if you can.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
I saw your post in teh other thread with poor pedal feel. Something just dont jive I have done a few of vas swaps as well as several folks around here having done it as well. Also, have them on my car and the pedal feel is not low like that at all.
Glad to see that sealing up the ports stopped the whistle.
Glad to see that sealing up the ports stopped the whistle.
turbonut85
Rarely used member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
I called Oreilly's today 1/9/10 and they quoted me $139.99 +$20.00 core charge for the Hydrobooster. = $159.99
Autozone has it for $196.99 + $35.00 core charge = $231.99
Oreilly's only lists a NEW master cylinder at $91.99
Autozone has both new and reman. (I have a reman on my car with absolutely NO issues)
New: $91.99
Reman: $12.99 + $18.00 core charge = $30.99
Here is a current link to the Pressure hoses as well...same as I paid last year, $32.99, and $20.99 respectively...again, at Autozone.
AutoZone.com | Vehicle Selection | Year
THIS is why I say to shop around! Do some research, it pays to do so.
The only difference in these prices, and the price when I did mine, is the M/C. Amounting to $11.00.
So get the booster from Oreilly's, and the master cylinder, and two pressure hoses from autozone and you have the system for right at $250 and some change....once you get the fluid and return hose/clamps.
turbonut85
Rarely used member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
Here is a link to my "How-To" thread on the PM to HB conversion. HTH ---Keith
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/how-tos/307690-powermaster-hydroboost-conversion.html
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/how-tos/307690-powermaster-hydroboost-conversion.html
For what it's worth, I have had good stopping power with my vacuum system. Things that have helped my braking were:
Added a Comp Cams vacuum resevoir
S-10 rear brake cylinders
Boxed lower control arms (could hold at least 10psi more on the foot brake after I did mine)
After 120mph quarter I added powerslots/hawk pas up front, nice improvement. Upgraded again to Wilwoods (Dynlite stock size) up front.
One thing to check, there was a recall back in 1990 on our cast iron proportioning valves that leak air into the system. (upgrade to brass) Ask my front bumper and grill how I found that one out.....lol
Added a Comp Cams vacuum resevoir
S-10 rear brake cylinders
Boxed lower control arms (could hold at least 10psi more on the foot brake after I did mine)
After 120mph quarter I added powerslots/hawk pas up front, nice improvement. Upgraded again to Wilwoods (Dynlite stock size) up front.
One thing to check, there was a recall back in 1990 on our cast iron proportioning valves that leak air into the system. (upgrade to brass) Ask my front bumper and grill how I found that one out.....lol
That vacum reseviour is the biggest thing helping your combo out. I feel that vacuum reseviours or vacuum pumps are a must on our cars in order to make a vacuum system work properly.
Comparing vacuum to hydroboost is like comparing a Yugo to a GN. The Yugo will get you there but not the way you want it to.
To the OP:
Go HydroBoost for $250 new and be done with it.
Remember, if you do go vacuum, you'll need to buy a brake pedal for vac brakes as well. HydroBoost system uses the same pedal as the PowerMaster.
Bs!
you have your opinion, you prefer Hydro boost.
but to say vac is inefficient,or needs a vac cannister is total BS.
turbo buicks make the same vacumn as regular cars do, only under boost do you have no vacumn, just like a normal car, to think a vac setup doesn't work, then why did GM put em on TTA?
I get so tired of backyard mech telling everyone their setup is the only way to go, poster asked for feedback, I feel your info is biased.
Vac is fine, better than powermaster, ( it won't fail) doesn't rely on hyd pressure , simple, easy, and effective.
you have your opinion, you prefer Hydro boost.
but to say vac is inefficient,or needs a vac cannister is total BS.
turbo buicks make the same vacumn as regular cars do, only under boost do you have no vacumn, just like a normal car, to think a vac setup doesn't work, then why did GM put em on TTA?
I get so tired of backyard mech telling everyone their setup is the only way to go, poster asked for feedback, I feel your info is biased.
Vac is fine, better than powermaster, ( it won't fail) doesn't rely on hyd pressure , simple, easy, and effective.
Feedback is what he wanted so feedback is what he's getting. As far as my set up being the only way to go, you should realize I have used all of the brake systems available for our cars, even used a vacuum pump to help keep a consistant pedal. I did everything i could to make it work. Does it work, yes it works but not even close to working as well as Hydroboost. He said a vac set up would cost him $260, hydroboost costs $250. Seems pretty obvious. As far as the backyard mechanic comment, maybe you should re-read your post and take your own advice.
Well thanks everyone for your comments and opinions. Look like theres much debate on whether to go vac or hydro. Either one is better than the my current powermaster, wasn't trying to get peeps to bash on each others setup. After all, its your ride and your entitled to do whatever you want to it. Nice post by the way Keith regarding the step by step instructions on the hydroboost, will def keep that on my file. I went with the vac setup just because it was a simpler swap, if it stops when I want it to, then its a great mod, so everyone can kiss and make up now.
salvageV6
Daily Driver
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Nah the whistle is still there, it may be internal to the vacuum block and the way it's machinined.
I'm going to pull the thing off this week, if it warms up some.
The pedal travel is MUCH further than the powermaster for the same brake power and it doesn't go to the floor either.
The powermaster when working is a lot nicer in MHO.
I have no problem trying to make the vacuum work however, and it does work every time you push the pedal so that's already a bonus for me. :biggrin:
Drove many miles with a blown powermaster fuse the last two months.
I am going to try: another vacuum port source, stiffer hose, resealing the Caspers block and gasket surfacing, bleeding a 3rd time, and perhaps a reservoir inline as well.
They work okay but in no way would I say that vacuum is anywhere as good as a working powermaster system.
Haven't tried a hydroboost but if a real kit with all the right parts came along I'd consider it. One box shopping is easier for me, although I'm gonna go back and reread the Hydroboost posts again for part numbers and availability.
Junkyards aren't a real option up here in CT you can't find and pull your own parts.
I'm going to pull the thing off this week, if it warms up some.
The pedal travel is MUCH further than the powermaster for the same brake power and it doesn't go to the floor either.
The powermaster when working is a lot nicer in MHO.
I have no problem trying to make the vacuum work however, and it does work every time you push the pedal so that's already a bonus for me. :biggrin:
Drove many miles with a blown powermaster fuse the last two months.
I am going to try: another vacuum port source, stiffer hose, resealing the Caspers block and gasket surfacing, bleeding a 3rd time, and perhaps a reservoir inline as well.
They work okay but in no way would I say that vacuum is anywhere as good as a working powermaster system.
Haven't tried a hydroboost but if a real kit with all the right parts came along I'd consider it. One box shopping is easier for me, although I'm gonna go back and reread the Hydroboost posts again for part numbers and availability.
Junkyards aren't a real option up here in CT you can't find and pull your own parts.
turbonut85
Rarely used member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
Hydroboost IS better, period. It provides uninterrupted, stopping power under ALL conditions...including under boost. Why did GM use vac on TTA's?? ...Why did they stray away from HB only to go to the s**tmaster?...no one knows...GM did alot of dumb s**t in the 80's. .
Seems the HB was a good enough system for GM to put them on most of the newer heavy-duty trucks....N/A trucks, even....why?? ....Because HB has SUPREIOR line pressure = MORE stopping power. Vac systems WILL work...nobody said they won't. However HB is BETTER, and for the SAME $$$. This is not a biased opinion either....just some facts. But hey, I guess since I'm not a "professional" mechanic---just another "back-yarder" what do I know??
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
I put a VAC Canister on mine and could tell no difference I left it on though ...too lazy to pull it off...LOL.
Well I guess your right. Lets see, so far we are backyard mechanics and farmers, I guess you are right on track. What other names do you have for us? There are some of us guys that really build cars from the ground up and spend the money to test other options for our cars so people like you dont have to.
turbonut85
Rarely used member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2008
I won't get involved any further with the schoolyard name calling....but your own posts disagree with each other.....so, which is it?? Do vac setups need a vac cannister or not?? Just trying to clarify.
I guess I'm NOT smarter than you, huh?
salvageV6
Daily Driver
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I used some 15/32" Thermoid emissions hose to go from the Caspers block huge port fitting to the GM vacuum brake filter about a foot long piece.
It seems to have cured the whistling.
I think the vacuum line in 3/8" silicone or soft rubber collapsed too much and made a nice orifice for a whistle just off idle, lucky me.
You need to shrink the hose down a bit at the GM vacuum brake filter barb but it fits good and tight on the Caspers block, I clamped both ends tightly anyway.
Ordered some 7/16" fuel line to use in place of the 15/32" stuff non-fuel injection type just fuel line.
Squeaked by emissions before the change in hose with a 132 out of 132 HC limit on the whistling setup. :biggrin:
Gonna bleed them again for the 3rd time too.
It seems to have cured the whistling.
I think the vacuum line in 3/8" silicone or soft rubber collapsed too much and made a nice orifice for a whistle just off idle, lucky me.
You need to shrink the hose down a bit at the GM vacuum brake filter barb but it fits good and tight on the Caspers block, I clamped both ends tightly anyway.
Ordered some 7/16" fuel line to use in place of the 15/32" stuff non-fuel injection type just fuel line.
Squeaked by emissions before the change in hose with a 132 out of 132 HC limit on the whistling setup. :biggrin:
Gonna bleed them again for the 3rd time too.
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
I used the dual set up on several cars and love the conversion so far. Not much can fail on a vac set up and you will still be able to stop your car! Plus with the car shut off you still have enough brakes to stop your car.
Little story involving vac brakes: Years ago my GN stalled about 3 miles from my house and didn't want to pay $70 + to have it towed home so I called (turbo dave) to come pull it home. Yes the car was dead and he came and we towed it home the 3 miles using just a tow rope! and the brakes worked well enough to stop my GN and his Excursion to keep the tow rope tight the whole way. Not sure how powermaster or hydro boost brakes would have worked in that situation but with the vac brakes you always have brakes!
I also can build 7lbs boost on my foot brake in my driveway! BUT with the new 2-step for the stock ECM the argument over what brakes hold the best will be MUTE! :biggrin:
Scot W.
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
One downside to the hydroboost is adding more lines and such to a already busy enough engine compartment JMHO
