No Start (part 2) HELP!!!!!

[Blown&Injected]

I tried the finger test and it was pretty easy to find the compresssion stroke. I then set cam sensor with the caspers cam setting tool. The postion is now exactlly where it was the very first time the engine was running for 10 minutes. So some how I had off for the last couple of days.(second guessing my first setup) So i tried to start it and it kept firing but would not start. Going through the directions with cam setting tool it said at zero TDC the notch in the metal cirlce should be around 3 o clock and at 25deg it should be around 5 o clock . My first one was at around almost five and the 25 deg was at 6 ?????


I tried the cam sensor in two other positons slightly clockwise and counter clock form the correct postion and it definallty did fire very much at all

Things i am going to try next

1. Draining out all the old gas and trying new gas and filter

2. Any other quick ways to test out the bad fuel theory?


ANY OTHER IDEAS??????????????

I am not looking at an engine right now but the positions you mention here DO NOT sound right. I believe the TDC mark falls about the 1 o'clock position and 25* ATDC would push the mark on the dampener to about the 2 o'clock position at most!!!! Like I said, I am not looking at an engine right now but 3 o'clock and higher seem way off.

About the fuel. I have left fuel in partially filled tanks for 2+ years - out doors with very high humidity and wide temperature swings teen in winter to 100* in summer. I have never had a bad gas problem, but I know people that have had issues with much less stagnant time. The fuel gets a musky odor to it - kinda like a cellar in an old house that has some earth floor space. Bad fuel could be an issue and pumping it out is easy to do.

I would use the method mentioned above on the old filter and a strong dose of dry gas/alcohol to help suck up any water that might be in there, then run another gallon of fresh fuel thru it, observe the flow rate by timing the volume in seconds per gallon and observe to condition/color/odor of the fuel, then install the new filter and try it out with fresh fuel.

Are you sure the cam sensor is all the way down and not busted internally? Some have reported trouble with the steel ring under the cap - on top of the sensor.

 

[URSPANKED]

You might try unplugging the MAF sensor. If it's bad, the car should idle pretty well. If it still runs cheesy, check all your intercooler hose connections.

 

[thbjcb]

I will be trying the fuel thing tomorrow. Some previuos posts have asked some questions.

1. I have not checked spark on 2 4 6 because they are on the same coil as 1 3 5 but I will do it anyways.

2. I know the metal cup is in good condition as I have had it appart several times.

3. Some one suggested uplugging the MAF, I will try this but I thought the MAF was not used on start up.

I will post back tomorrrow with the latest Saga of findings

 

[thbjcb]

I tried the new gas and got it to run but it was still hard to start. When it started I brought the rpms up to 2500 and held it there for about 25 minutes. Then brought it down to 2000. At both rpms the engine is running ruff but I wanted to get the cam broke in so I kept running. after about 10 miniutes at 2000 I tried bring to idle so I could insert a spacer in the throttle but it died. I was able to get it running after another hard start. I then babied slowly down to idle and ran long enough to get the spacer in. After running another 20 minutes at 2000 I let it idle for 15 minutes. It still was running ruff. Now comes the wierd part.

Twice during this procedure the car suddenly ran perfectlly smooth for about 4 seconds at 2000 and at idle? It almost seems like its not running on all cylinders

Whatever the problem is the gas was only part of the problem.

ANY NEW IDEAS?

 

[Jerryl]

Dumb question.
What do the plugs look like?
Any way for you to verify the cam timing?

 

[Fakeyankee]

I'm no expert by far.......but since you finally got it to run doing the fuel draining thing.........I would do it again and try to flush your whole fuel system, plus change to a new fuel filter. It sounds like you have some really bad-contaminated fuel in the lines and not all the bad stuff was purged. Sometimes it's the most simplest things that are over looked. I would try to purge your fuel system one more time before trying anything else.

 

[thbjcb]

Actually I did purge all of the bad fuel and even another gallon of fresh fuel out the shrader valve. After the one gallon purge I also put in a new fuel filter. Another thing I noticed is that when the radiator fan kicked on the idle speed would drop. I know my battery is weak but it should still run decent ????

How can I verify the cam timing without tearing the front cover back off?

 

[83ttypecooled]

Cam timing

Hi,
How is this thing running now? Hitting on all 6 with good throttle response? If so, blow off the timing question. If it is boggy and sluggish, it is possible that somehow the cam timing is wrong. If you have a misfire,dropping cylinders,etc., you know what to look for. As far as verifying cam timing, I don't know of an accurate way without some disassembly.You could try a compression test; if they are all down, that might be an indicator.
Your motor has certainly had a baptism by fire, but I'm pretty sure it'll be ok. Keep plugging, you'll get it. The rewards are sweet! Good luck.

 

[thbjcb]

I will check the compression and report back in the next couple of days. The question I have when using the noid light and cranking the engine about how many times should I see the light blink.??? How fast the engine is cranking will have an effect but it sure seemed lke it was blinking several times a second. When I pull the plugs it always seems like it is getting to much fuel. While it was running I even turned the fuel pressure down to 20 psi and the engine still ran the same. -

 

[thbjcb]

Ok guys help me out here.......I did a compression test and all cylinders were at 160 + or - 6 except for cylinder #2 which has ZERO. When I pull the spark plugs after its runnig the other five plugs are black with soot and #2 wet with fuel. So when I pull the valve cover what should I check for??? I was talking to old school mechanic and he was wondering about the lifter adjustment and I told them there were unadjustable. So how do I know if the lifter preload is correct? Things will abousily varry a little after the heads were resurfaced slightly and new larger valves were installed.

 

[thbjcb]

I pulled the valve cover off today and found the bad news. What I first found was the push rod off to the side of rocker. I removed the rockers and the push rod and the rod was bent and the second valve back from front of the engine(cylinder #2) was stuck down about a 1/4 ". If you remeber the car ran fine for the fist ten minutes. So I guess it is not any sensor.......


1. Did I wipe the cam lobe by bending the pushrod?
2. could the valve hit the piston?
3. Second back the intake or exhaust?


WHY DID THIS HAPPEN AND WHAT THE F*** SHOULD I DO NOW!!!!!!!

 

[Blown&Injected]

The first one from the front is exhaust and the second is intake.

If the valve is bent it probably did hit the piston or something that fell into the cylinder. It sounds like there is a chance the cam was not installed correctly as far as timing with the crank is concerned.

It is possible that the cam is OK but the lifter may be messed up and the head will have to come off for inspection of the head and piston. Will have to at least replace the valve and pushrod, I would replace the lifter and remove the cam and make a very close inspection of the cam.

Maybe somebody that is more familiar with the clearance on these engines can say what the chance that some other interference may have occurred.

 

[thbjcb]

If it is a cam to crank timing problem why does this not show up on the other cylnders?

 

[Blown&Injected]

it could be close enough that it would fire to a certain degree, enough to run, on the other cylinders, and the #2 may have been the unlucky one to smack - piston to valve. But it does seem like othr cylinders should have had issues but maybe not, that is why i said that maybe we will hear from some others that know about the valve/piston timing better than i understand it.

i do not know what would cause a valve to bend other than cam in wrong or something in the cylinder. anf i dont know why a valve would get stuck open if it did not get bent. possible it was bad from the get-go but there were some comments about where the tdc mark was showing up that makes me think something was off

 

[gnsrule]

Is this a Billit cam w/ Comp roller lifters ? I had a problem w/ them bleeding down. The lifter was holding the valve open just a tic even w/ the engine off. When it ran, it ran like crap.

 

[thbjcb]

Stock valve train stuff. I will try and remove the spring and see if I can get the valve loose.

 

[Blown&Injected]

Is this a Billit cam w/ Comp roller lifters ? I had a problem w/ them bleeding down. The lifter was holding the valve open just a tic even w/ the engine off. When it ran, it ran like crap.

The valves were not adjusted properly if they are holding the valve open and the lifter need not be pumped up to adjust the valves. The spring in the lifter keeps the cup up hard enough to feel zero lash.

 

[thbjcb]

I think I under stand your response but my problem is the rockers are off and the valve is still stuck down about 1/4 ". I do remember the rotating the engine over before putting the valve covers on and everthing looked good. How do I adjust things with the stock setup??

 

[Blown&Injected]

With stock type rockers it is necessary to use an adjustible pushrod to determine the proper length pushrod to have the proper preload. Some use shims under the rocker shafts but that will affect more than one valve at a time and cause the shaft to be bent to a slight degree if it is shimmed to different amounts on different towers.

 

[gnsrule]

If the valve is stuck down, its either siezed in the guide or more than likely, bent.

Blown&Injected, The comp lifters i'm refering to had a problem w/ the cosmoline and dirt in there from Comp. The cup wouldnt push down from the circlip. Do a search, youll see what i mean, i wasnt the only one haveing his problem about a yr ago.