New GN owner, very happy but need help

B

Brad Anderson

New Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
I love cars and have always been into them and have always liked the idea of a owning a rare car, a sleeper car if you will....something unsuspecting to most people :) My dad always loved the grand nationals and I kind of got into them and just recently was able to purchase one :)

It's a 1987 Grand National with around 111,400 miles on it and from what I can tell it is pretty much stock and I got it for $11,900. I live around Columbus Ohio area and picked this car up in Dayton Ohio and have driven it a few times since then and it runs great and has given me no problems as of yet. :)

My plan at this time is to keep it pretty much stock, I would like to get a new cold air intake, MAF pipe and maybe a new up pipe for performance but also so that the engine bay will look nice at shows :) I also plan to do at least a cat back exhaust because the stock on on the car now looks like its 25 years old :p

Now while I am a car guy and have done some work on cars, most of my ability comes from being able to fall directions and install somewhat easy stuff like bolt ons and so on, I don't think I would be comfortable doing anything like installing valve springs or a fuel pump both of which I heard are good mods to do on these cars.

So I was wondering if there are any guys that live near the Columbus Ohio area, say withing 100 miles maybe, that really know these cars? It would be nice if I could take this car to someone who really knows what they are looking at and could give me more insight to the condition of my car and how close it is to stock and how good it runs and so on so that maybe I would know what I got.

Any suggestions would be great and just so you know I am doing a lot of reading on this site as well as other sites and the only mods I have currently done to the car is replace the shifter handle with an upgraded one from GBodyParts (it's the stock one with alumunium parts instead of plastic) and I got the Grand National horn logo as well and the previous owner removed the cat but I have it - that's it.

Thanks :)
 
Welcome to the board, do you know the previous history of the car? That would be helpful especially with regards to the timing chain and gears. Hopefully they have been replaced with that mileage. Lots of knowledge here on the board, suggest you also check out this one too for the basics..... http://vortexbuicks-etc.com/

If you need a cold air kit/MAF pipe etc, check out my site.
 
Unfortunately no :(, the guy I bought it from had been the owner for 5 years and had only put about 2,500 miles on it. He told me the guy he bought it from had removed the cat and that's about all he knew. He also installed a new receiver dryer and he "thinks" the AC system has been converted to R134a but nothing as far as the engine goes. He did give me the previous owner's names so I might try to contact them but yea, that is kind of why I'm hoping I can find a Buick mechanic semi close to me that appreciates these cars and will work on them with care instead of going to a Buick dealer.

At this point I'm going the whole if it ain't broke don't fix it route lol, everything seems to be running fine so I'm just enjoying the car when I can. :)

I have been doing a lot of reading on this forum as well as other forums and have seen that site you posted and have been to your site many times, I even emailed you regrading your aluminum shifter handles and you responded stating you no longer sold them ;)

I'm also looking into valve spring replacements but there seems to be a lot of differing opinions on which to get but I know the stock ones (assuming mine are stock) aren't very good and should be replaced. As I said above i have no plans to drag race this at least not a lot, i might go once in a blue moon or something but it's mainly something I want to just keep running as long as possible and enjoy cruising. I found these but I don't know enough about cars to understand what I'm reading to know if these are good stock replacements:

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...=1356&osCsid=d3b7629c57bcf1a62259a507488ae442

As far as intakes go, I really do like your Big Mouth intake, however, I really want to stay away from having to modify anything or relocate anything so I think I'm going to go with the Tinman intake and MAF pipe to start and then look for a replacement up pipe and down pipe and cat back exhaust at some point - other than that I haven't really decided what else I would do if anything other than replacing stuff that breaks with better stuff so I can get another 100k miles out of this car :)
 
I'ld be looking at all the vacuum lines. Valve springs are a good bet too. Your going to need a Scanmaster to keep an eye on the car too. Good luck with it.
 
I would recommend a new timing chain quickly for piece of mind. Bad things happen if the original nylon gives out.
 
Welcome to the board.
I completely agree about the Scanmaster, as well as an aftermarket boost gauge. Don't trust the factory LED lights if you have a analog dash car. I recommend an Autometer 2 1/16" 30-0-30 psi boost gauge in an A-pillar pod.

Best place to get a Scanmaster is from our fore father Mike.

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp+ic+050SCAN2GN+eq++Tp+

And don't forget to add a bottle of ZDDPlus at every oil change.
Trust me, your cam and turbo will thank you for it. This is very important, especially with high mileage.

http://www.zddplus.com/

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/products/20/ZDDPlus+OIL+ADDITIVE.html

Believe it or not, there are a lot of Buick guys in Ohio.
HTH

Patrick
 
Welcome aboard,im sure some guys from your area will chime in.....you are wise to ask for help,these cars require knowledge to property tune......x2 on timing chain from experence ....
 
Thanks for the greetings everyone and for all the suggestions :)

In regards to a timing chain, any suggestions on where and which one to get? I found 2 different ones on GBodyParts but am not sure if that's more than I need and I could get something at a local parts store. Also are these something I could install myself or is it worth it to have a professional do it?

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...=1581&osCsid=5013b364a0192064d4a98f91dde1c621

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...d=875&osCsid=5013b364a0192064d4a98f91dde1c621

In regards to the Scanmaster, I know from my reading on all the sites that it is THE thing to get, however, at this time I don't plan on upping the boost or changing anything from stock other than intake and exhaust....is it still something you think is good to get if your not really trying to boost performance? My guess is yes because it allows you to diagnose your cars issues even though I'm not sure how you read the results and I'm sure I would need to have someone who knows what they are doing read them and make the necessary changes :) Same with the boost gauge, I would agree the stock boost gauge and heck stock rpm gauge isn't all that great but again if I'm not upping the boost I am not sure I really would need it at this point unless your saying the stock is way off so you really have no idea how much boost your pushing?

As for valve springs, I have read a lot of opinions...some get the LT1 springs others say don't they are too much. I found some again on GBodyParts but I don't want to get the wrong ones and have too much or not enough. Right now I'm just happy it runs as good as it seems to and am somewhat worried that if I change anything it will mess it up lol.

Someone recommended new vacuum lines and I found a set of silicone ones on GBodyParts but honestly wouldn't know where they all are...I'm good at following directions when it comes to installing stuff on cars but directions are the key :)

Thanks for all the good suggestions, this gives me some good info to come back to as needed. I am just trying to get the most bang for my buck and do the right things first or most important things first while keeping the car as stock as possible. :)
 
After my timing gear failed, I went with a double roller. You don't use a tensioner with the double roller. Another vendor sells a single chain that I heard was good too. Can't remember witch one.

The biggest thing is to keep reading. I learned a lot about what works and what doesn't that way. It will save you from wasting money. Everybody here was good at answering my questions when I got my gn a couple years back.
 
Also, you can get vacuum lines at oriellys or autozone. I just cut some samples from my existing lines and took them to oriellys to match the sizes. Then just replace one at a time on the car so you know where they go.
 
Guess said:
Also, you can get vacuum lines at oriellys or autozone. I just cut some samples from my existing lines and took them to oriellys to match the sizes. Then just replace one at a time on the car so you know where they go.
Click to expand...

That's my problem, I wouldn't be able to look at the engine bay and be able to tell you which lines are the vacuum lines :( I can point out the basics and have installed intercoolers and wastegates and cold air intakes on cars and understand how cars work but when it comes to knowing all the little things I wouldn't be able to do it without directions showing a pic of the engine bay and which ones are the vacuum lines.

Been doing some research on the timing chain stuff this morning and a lot of posts I have been reading say to go with the stock oem replacement cause they are quieter and last a long time but I can't seem to find them online, I'm looking for everything I would need that I could take to someone and have them install it.
 
I'm like you. I can follow instructions well. As a result, I was able to remove and install a rebuilt engine into my gn just going by the resources on this website. All the info is here, just got to look for it.

Just do a search for 'vacuum diagram' in the search function on this website.
 
Guess said:
I'm like you. I can follow instructions well. As a result, I was able to remove and install a rebuilt engine into my gn just going by the resources on this website. All the info is here, just got to look for it.

Just do a search for 'vacuum diagram' in the search function on this website.
Click to expand...

Thanks :) Will do
 
Do yourself and others a favor and go to your user controls and add some info. A location will help others figure out if they're close and can help and a sig with info about the car saves time when asking a question.;)
 
Getting to know the LC2 can be a very daunting task. There are tons of wires, hoses, sensors and relays all over the place. The good news is, you are at the right place to learn about these cars. As a head start, I would recommend you go here and start reading.

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/sensors.html

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/turbox.html

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/basics.html

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/malf.html

http://www.gnttype.org/resources.html

Even though GNTTYPE has been around for awhile, it will give you the basics and really help acclimate you to the motor and the car. There is a ton of info on that site and pretty much every new owner has read and or book marked that site.

The Scanmaster is the #1 tool that you need, to help you not only learn how to properly tune your car, but to also help diagnose problems that will come up. The very first screen that comes up on the Scanmaster, tells you your O2 milivolts and degrees of knock retard. These two readouts will help you keep from blowing your new car up. Which is very important. I always found it best to tune for .780 - .800 Mv and no more than 2 degrees of knock that goes away after a second or two under WOT. In a perfect world, you want zero knock under WOT. (Wide Open Throttle) The Scanmaster is a simple 3 wire scantool that is absolutely a must have for these cars. It also includes a very good instruction manual that teaches you how to read and use it. Absolutely a must have.

The factory LED boost gauge is very in-accurate. Although it might say you are only running 10psi, you could be in fact running 17psi. Typically when the cars where new, they would run anywhere from 12-15psi, depending on ambient conditions. With today's gas, a bone stock car really needs to keep the boost under 14psi until everything is sorted out.

Here are some things that you need to sort out.

- What chip is in the ECM? The ECM is located in the lower kick panel on the right side of the lower passenger side footwell. Once the ECM is fished out of the plastic holder, there is a small plate that's bolted down with two screws. The large chip is your EProm. To determine which chip you have, first, disconnect the single orange wire that is located behind the battery. There is a quick disconnect electrical connector in this orange wire behind the battery, be careful with the connector as time and heat can make it brittle and it can break. With the orange wire disconnected, fish the ECM out of the plastic kick panel holder, remove one screw and loosen the other so you can rotate the cover up and out of the way. Now, carefully pry the EProm chip out of the ECM in a rocking side to side manner. Be careful here as well. Typically, there is a label that aftermarket chip makers either write or print the chips specs on, that is on the bottom side of the chip. Give us this info, or take a picture and post it up and we will be able to help tell you what chip you have. This is very important, because it will help us tell you what the chip is, how much timing it has and if it's correct for your setup and or matched to your injectors. The bone stock chips, even the recalled ones from years ago, had too much timing in them for today's ethanol blended 93 octane fuel, vs what we had back then. So if it is a 100% stock chip, you need to either upgrade it to a Turbo Tweak chip, or go through your fuel system so you won't have problems. You might already know about this, but I'm just repeating for others in the future.

http://www.turbotweakstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1000

- What fuel injectors does the car have?

- Does the car have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator or a stock Bosch 231 non adjustable regulator?

- Does the car have a fuel pump hot wire kit installed? Or stock fuel pump wiring?

- Does the car have an upgraded fuel pump installed or stock?

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...=1213&osCsid=97fd0c15686007dc0b3024b50ce9417a

- Has the car ever had a Spring Cleaning done to it? Plugs? Factory fuel filter changed? O2 sensor changed? Age of the plug wires? Factory coil pack and ignition module?

- Does the car have the original turbo on it?

- Does the car have a 160* thermostat in it?

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp ic 4301508 eq Tp

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp ic 505MTO0001 eq Tp

- Does the car have the factory air box? Or a K&N cone filter attached directly to the MAF sensor?

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/187/K and N 9" CONE AIR FILTER and MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR BRACKET #1547.html

- Does the car have the stock flexible MAF hose from MAF sensor to turbo, or a hard steel or aluminum MAF pipe?

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/244/Black Powder-coated ALUMINUM MASS AIR FLOW PIPE #6719.html

http://buickgn.com/mafpipes3INCH.htm

- Do the valve covers have K&N breathers or just the stock breather connected to the turbo on the passengers side and the fill tube with cap on the drivers side?

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/243/Passengers Side BREATHER BY-PASS KIT #1580.html

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/241/Angled Billet OIL FILL TUBE and BREATHER KIT #7097.html

- Did the original owner/owners know about the importance of running ZDDPlus oil additive at each oil change? If not, you could be looking at some internal repairs very soon. Not running a zinc phosphorus oil additive in normal off the shelf oil, can and will lead to wiped cam lobes and eventual bearing failures. If it absolutely vital that you run the oil additive to protect your cam, motor and the turbo.

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/445/ZDDPLUS 4-OUNCE BOTTLE (1) #7176.html

- I completely agree, you gotta replace the timing change with a nice double roller timing chain. Especially with high mileage. And don't reuse the timing chain tensioner if you go with a double roller. Also replace the cam button with a Torrington roller bearing cam button. The stock nylon cam button wears a hole into the front cover with age. When you tear into the timing change replacement, it is very important that you inspect the front cover for wear from the nylon cam button. It might be worn to the point that you will need to replace the front cover with a new one.

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp ic 1851014 eq Tp

http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/itemdesc.asp ic 001CB100 eq Tp

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/43996/Reproduction TIMING CHAIN COVER with New Timing Tab #7437.html

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/products/5/ENGINE, FUEL and IGNITION PARTS.html?cur_pos=18

These are things we need to address, so that you do not do any un-expected damage to the motor just driving it normally.

- If the car does not have an aftermarket boost gauge and you are only relying on the factory LED lights under the RPM lights, your boost could be off by as much as 5 psi. This can lead to detonation issues. Typically, on a properly sorted out and good running 86-87 Turbo Buick, you can run 14-17 psi of boost and 18-20* of timing under WOT with today's regular 93 pump gas. This is considered the norm.

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/113/VDO COCKPIT SERIES 30 LB. BOOST GAUGE #6627.html

http://www.kirbanperformance.com/product/103/Grey Plastic SINGLE A-PILLAR WINDSHIELD GAUGE HOLDER #1530.html

- Does the car have the stock turbo downpipe, stock catalytic converter and stock cat back exhaust, or have these parts been upgraded? These are parts that are typically upgraded for horsepower and performance and if done right, can be worth up to 40 hp. The factory parts were very restrictive and helped the GM engineers choke down the power.

- Has the drivers side header ever been repaired and or welded? The factory drivers side header always cracks between primary tube numbers 3 & 5 and need to be repaired and or replace the header if it's beyond repair.


And lastly, if you have questions about any part under the hood, simply snap a picture and post it up with your questions. I can assure you, you will get a very helpful answer. This website has been and still continues to be the # 1 source of information about Turbo Buicks. There's tons of information on here as well as a huge knowledge base from all the users. Remember to support our vendors of this site.
HTH

Patrick
 
Nice job Patrick. NOTE! This one post should be made into a sticky with the title NEW TR OWNERS MUST READ THIS!
 
X2!

Must of had some spare time on your hands. That's a plethora of information. ;)

We'll have to stick it. WDYT Charlie?

RL
 
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