Need Advice on Which Eng Mang.

E

Ed95Pont

Guest
Hey Guys Brand Knew to this Board But I have Been Following it for a while.
I am looking for some advice for what system to get.I am currently useing Lt1 Edit It works Fine for My 94 But My 95 will need some help.
Almost done:396 Lt1 solid roller 260 range at .50 12.1 With a 400 H.p. Fogger (possibly Dry) This will be heads up car for next seoson.

Well I am loking for suggestions on mangment system,And options I should get with it
Plus are their any systems that are usb compatible.
What about plugging int exciting ecm(for speedo ect)And what about opti compatability.
All Info wood be apreciated.

Thanks Ed Ventura
 
Ed,

You can check out the FAST system on the web at www.fuelairspark.com to see if you think it'll fit the bill. The only suggestion I have right off the bat is not to even bother trying to make this motor run with an Optispark ignition. Get a crank trigger and a MSD 7AL-2 and be done with it, you will never regret it. You probably will regret trying the Optispark with that motor. Don't mean to rain on your parade... I'd just hate for you to wrestle with something that I feel is a poor choice for what sounds like an otherwise cool motor.

Craig
 
Ed, I am using an Accel DFI system in my LT1 (94) powered chevy truck. I got it from Mac at http://www.fasttrackperformance.com/ a couple of years ago. I am just now finishing the project, so all I can say is it seems to run ok in the garage:rolleyes:

I am using the Opticrap so far. I agree with craig about a crank trigger system. My engine is stock with a mild cam and p&p heads so I am gonna give the Opticrap a chance. When I started the project money was not a huge concern, now I am on a budget (unemployed)!

Let me know if I can answer any specific questions.

The SpeedPro/FAST support on this site is awesome. I am not sure if Accel support is so readily available.

Butch
 
I am in no way married to my opti.What are my choices for spark distribution.Thanks Again Ed
 
Another option

You can also look into Holley's Commander 950. I currently use this setup and is very user friendy. Its budet minded and controls quite well. I use a stand alone WBO2, that still keeps the cost below a FAST system and allows me to remove it if needed.
 
I've been grueling too! Some of what I've learned..

I too have been looking for the answer to this question but on a different vehicle. I've also done some research on the Opti and I think I'd have to agree with the above advice - that sucker is bound to fail! It did on our Impalla and is (expensive) junk.

As I see it there are about three options worth seriously considering unless you're trying to go really cheap. Those options are the Holly Commander which is a batch (bank?) system that may or may not interface with that Opti, the FAST system which has an added cost sequential option, and the DFI GEN7.

I've found VERY good support for both the Commander and the FAST systems. I've found diddly squat for the DFI, in fact finding people with experience on the new GEN7 has been difficult!

The Commander doesn't presently support a WB option but it MAY in the future. It's pretty cheap but you'd want to make sure they offered a plug n' play version for you car. Doug from Holley is THE guy to ask over on ChevyTalk. I'll post an URL from my thread over there below for you. He supports the Commander as well as the guys here support the FAST system and gives VERY candid answers. I'll buy some Holly hardware, though possibly not their ECU, just to support the company he works for as I appreciate his advice.

The GEN7 and FAST system DO support WB NOW. The GEN7 system appears to support more features out of the box - sequential looks to be included and doesn't require sending it back to the factory for support etc.. However the GEN7 APPEARS to be about $400 more expensive. I say "appears" because it's tough to figure out what you must buy with the GEN7 to have a comparable system to the FAST out of the box. Knock sensor harness? MALF lite harness? DFI also charges for their software and uses a STUPID propriatary (sp?) cable to ensure that you don't pirate the damned software. FAST appears to use a plain Jane serial cable and their software price is $25. The FAST software charge is reasonable, the DFI charge of $225 (usually included in the ECU cost from many vendors) reminds me of the old Electromotive software that cost a mint :rolleyes:

Honestly, I'm still deciding on a unit. I've found NO support for the DFI online (yet) but it's specs are impressive (on paper). I'm still trying to research the cost differences to factor them in. FAST on the other hand has been sold a few times which is scary but they DO support their hardware\software well online, ARE cheaper than DFI, but do cost for some upgrades. FAST has released hardware\software upgrades recently, they appear to be healthy for the foreseeable future and aren't sitting on their butt's. The Holley system is a powerful budget oriented option and if they support WB will be terrific for those who don't NEED sequential but want WB. Holley is also most certainly NOT sitting on their butt's either. WideBand is important to me and could be to you too since it sounds like wish to tinker - as I do. Many people will NEVER need WB but I find it's potential, aside for the cost :eek:, to be attractive. If you don't need WB or sequential then the Commander is pretty awesome IMO.

Lastly (finally) - why do you wish to switch away from LT1-Edit? I actually researched the Opti because I was considering using the computer you wish to dump :) What's lacking? Appreciate any and all info :D

Some threads\forums that may interest you ->

http://forums.chevytalk.com/forums/Forum12/HTML/000124.html
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=18100
http://www.hybridz.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=20
http://www.hybridz.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001328

P.S. Some additional data points. FAST makes a demo copy of their software available. DFI has a demo but it's not online anywhere that I can find :( Holly and FAST have tuning\install manuals online for review. I've found ZIP in the way of manuals from DFI :( WTF is wrong with DFI, full page ads in Racepages but no decent screenshots or downloads on their WEB site?! Is anyone here using the GEN7?
 
Call Turbo People for Gen7

Call Job Sr. or Jr. at turbo people.
They havve been running this unit for a
while now. I think they had one of the
first test units.

Here is the contact info. I would recommend calling,
they are not online a lot.

Turbo People of New York specializing in custom fuel injection tuning. Turbo's, Superchargers and Nitrous they do it all. Chassis dyno sessions available call for quote. (914)478-1727 or email them at turbopeopl@aol.com or Job Spetter Jr. at job@carterracing.com
 
Thanks John!

I've actually got their number on my list of folks to contact :) I spoke to a friend who has apparently been dealing with them for a bit and he too recommended that I give them a shout. He says to only speak to Job Jr. though. It seems that he's got experience with BOTH the FAST and the GEN7 but that Sr. seems to be more "focused" on the DFI. He gave me the impression that I'd get a fairer comparison from Jr. :D

Interestingly enough my friend has the GEN7 but has yet to get his car to the point of tuning it. I'm not sure how much research he did into the FAST system before making his decision but he apparently got a good price from the local EMIC who has yet to tune a GEN7 whiohc probably had a great deal to do with his choice rather than features. I'm told that the local impport guys prefer the FAST over anything else that they've tried. When asked why all I get back from them is "it just works" without any real details (sigh)...

I'm still making my decision...
 
Their are a lot of comparisons that I need to make also.Still a lot of research to be done.I must have a wb option but stand alone is probablly exceptible.I would also like to have sequential.
Lt1 edit whith my stock ecm is very good .But it is limited to 7000 Rpm.It will run past 7000 but all paramiters are locked at 7000.Plus I am looking for the option of fuel inrichement through the injectors when on the bottle.With the size injector that I will need for a 400 horse shot will the engine be able to run/Idle with the huge injectors when not on the bottle
Agin are any of these sytems compatible with my stock ecm.Plus what options due I have for spark distribution if I get rid of the opti.I have no room under the cowl fora dist.Maybe a msd crank Driven dist or is their someone with a coil pack option
Thanks Ed
 
>WideBand is important to me and could be to you too since it sounds like wish to tinker - as I do.

Wb O2 is not just some tinkerer's gadget, it's the whole friggin' key to allowing a person like you or myself to get their car up and running well in their garage with no outside tuning help, no dyno time, a minimum of suffering, etc. In less than a week the car can be pulling clean every darn pass at the track at 2 bar of boost + nitrous, without being tuned perfect in every spot in the VE table. It's probably the biggest breakthrough for performance engine management since EFI itself IMO. I still find it hard to believe that so many seem to not fully get that aspect. I guess they've never tried to tune and run a Haltech or DFI on their own. It's not easy to put it mildly, especially for a beginner. The closed loop feedback from the wb O2 makes the chore a h*ll of alot easier. Don't leave home without it.

TurboTR
 
Actually...

Ya', I HAVE tried to tune a DFI without a WB sensor and with NO help. It took me a VERY long time and I would datalog to and from work to get driveability bugs out - graphing the resulting data in Excel was a joke. Trying to compare 0-1 TPS sensor output to 1K-6K RPM along with vac\boost.... YUCK!

Today's datalogging makes a BIG difference too. I've not yet seen the DFI software but the FAST software will actually allow you to step through the graphs and see what cell is being used for any particular data. The only option I'd want to add would be a self modifying VE table using the WB. Bound it so a bad sensor doesn't trash thing and allow us to turn it off but it sure would be nice :D

Anyway, I agree that a WB sensor is needed but obviously not everyone uses it. As for working with the stock ECM - dunno how well that would work out to be honest. I'm not the right one to ask, I'm going to use this on an old V8 Datsun Z bought specifically becasue I was frustrated with emissions and th eissue you're working against. You'll want to get a wiring diagram and see where things like the speedo' gets it's signal. If straight from the trans you ought to be okay but if using the ECM then it's much more difficult. Perhaps the ECM could simply be lobotomized such that it's not firing injectors or controlling spark? I THINK DFI lists a part number for the Opti, a call to their tech line might help you some.

As for the NOS. Honestly I think it would take a pretty big injector to handle that much juice AND the motor. If so then sequential will probably be needed. I'd be pretty nervous about doing that, one slightly clogged injector and you've got "issues". I've seen burned pistons on a naturally aspirated motor run hard with a bad injector, the NOS would just make it ten times worse :eek:.

NOS just released (at SEMA) a new device that slips UNDER the injector that might interest you. It accepts both fuel and nitrous connections that it mixes and injects under the injector with NO additional fuel required from the injector itself.

Doug over on ChevyTalk could probably speak to this better as I believe he's helped develop it (tested it at least), I've seen pics from SEMA. It DOES raise the injector up a bit but Doug has stated that it hasn't hurt the motor's performance off the spray and I believe I trust him on that. I have no idea what the cost of these things are or their availability just yet - it's a VERY new part...

Food for thought, the ECU could still fire the nitrous but you wouldn't be stressing out a huge set of injectors when you did.
 
The rules in the class that I will be running requires The need for the huge injectors and dry nitrous setup.It simply states that if running EFI and a fogger it must be a dry system.I can see a piston or 2 going bye bye as we speak.

Looking in to the different choices out their I do beleive that the are compatible with my stock ecm and just take over the fuel and spark controll. Later Ed
 
Go with the FAST unit!!

A few months ago I put together an LT1 Impala. I used a FAST with an MSD crank trigger. The car is set up to run on NOS so it only runs 11.75 on motor (That is the national record for normally aspirated) The car weighs 440O#'s :eek:

We have only made one "shake down" pass on NOS, but it went 10.65@130(National Record again). I have now started tuning the NOS and expect it to run in the low 10 sec range on one kit (250hp). If everything works out, we will use the 2nd kit to get it into the 9's.

BTW: We are using 50# inj's and a TCI Controler for the 4L60E

Again, "Go with the FAST unit"
 
Ed, I am using the DFI for fuel and spark management along with my stock computer for all of the other stuff, including transmission shifting (4L60E).

If I had to make the decision today I would probably go with Cal's suggestion! It would cost about twice as much but I think it's a better system. All of those Stage II guys must know something, right!


Butch
 
>NOS just released (at SEMA) a new device that slips UNDER the injector that might interest you. It accepts both fuel and nitrous connections that it mixes and injects under the injector with NO additional fuel required from the injector itself.

That's interesting. If you find anymore info please relay it. But OTOH, the juice works so well with the FAST wb O2 ecu so far IME that one would be hard pressed to want to change it :) Just plumb it dry, get the extra fuel through the injectors and "walla", off she goes, in a hurry ;-)

TurboTR
 
How big an injector?

Perhaps I'm overestimating the size of an injector needed to run dry, how much additional injector does say a 200HP shot or even 100HP shot require? Does the FAST system handle staged injectors? If the class allows that then I'd consider going that way so long as the manifold had room :)

Butch, which DFI are you using and why would you go with the FAST over it next time around? Any specific problems with the GEN7? I'm not convinced hat because "everyone" uses a particular system that it's the best - especially with the GEN7 just now (finally) becoming widely available. If you've found issues with the GEN7 PLEASE share because it would certainly help those of us trying to decide. I have no doubt people have gripes about the FAST system too and I'd also be interested in those. We're talking about complicated systems here, I don't expect perfection. The GEN7 has things out of the box that FAST doesn't (sequential etc.) so deciding between them isn't quite apples to apples - not an easy decision!

Hrm, and since we're talking about FAST - do the FAST "dashboards" look like graphical dashboards? The DFI has a setup like that for watching sensors while driving but I've not seen pics of such a thing on the FAST and the demo version won't allow you to get into that portion of the software :( Overall the FAST software looks pretty darned nice IMO but I can see lot's of learning ahead. Oh, any sort of startup wizard to help you get the base VE table set for initial startup? I haven't been able to find such a thing in the software yet... TIA!

P.S. I will try to post the pics of the new NOS nozzles when I have a chance. Pics are in my e-mail and HUGE so I'll have to reduce them down before hosting them off my server.
 
You just have to follow the old 0.5 bsfc rule of thumb basically. If you want an additional 100 hp then you need to pump in an additional 50 lbs/hr or so fo fuel to make it.

TurboTR
 
BLKMGK, My DFI is about two years old so I guess it is Gen 6? I would choose FAST simply because of the support that is available on this board and from their dealers. The FAST system has sequential out of the box, if you order it that way, but you can start with bank to bank and upgrade later if you wish. At least that is my understanding.

BB
 
Apples and Oranges

Can't compare the DFI 6 with the 7, two totally different animals. The 7 has wideband, multistage NOS, dual rev limiters, bank to bank\sequential\batch?, and the ability to interface with multiple ignition systems yadda yadda yadaa -> http://www.mrgasket.com/dfinew.htm

The 6 pales in comparison to the FAST and GEN7. The FAST system can indeed be upgraded to sequential but don't you also lose some other functions doing that? You must also return it to the factory for that upgrade and pay an additional fee. The 7 doesn't have to be returned but it would probably be fair to say you pay the added cost up front since it's more expensive (I think). The GEN7 and FAST systems are pretty competitive compared to one another and the difference in support could very well end up the deciding factor.

Anyway, you said that you were able to use your GEN6 to run the gauges and transmission - sounds like something the original poster could use for his project. How hard was it to set this up? The computer receive any engine signals? Maybe keep the stock computer seeing the Opti? How are you running the ignition - distributor or what? More details please - this sounds promising for those who want to keep their computer controlled gauges and transmissions with an aftermarket ECU :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top