Manual brakes brake pad selection

[87geeinn]

For those utilizing a manual brake setup...what pads have you settled on? Consider my setup as stock except for the following: S-10 manual cylinders in the rear and a S-10 manual brake 24mm master cylinder. I love the manual setup for regular everyday driving but I have piss-poor "bite" on the front pads when it comes to aggressive stops. I'm running ceramic pads up front currently but I realize that is about the worst type of pad from a performance aspect. I have a set of Hawk Performance 5.0 pads coming soon to try out. Thoughts, suggestions, experiences? I have to literally stand on the pedal to build more than 1psi boost without pushing through the brakes.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

The 24mm M/C isn't helping, should use a 7/8" M/C.

With a 7/8" M/C and LS1 brakes ('98-'02 Camaro/Firebird), using StopTech Street Performance brake pads on the front, and IIRC, PBR pads on the rear the car stops well. The StopTech pads are on the high end of the FF range. At a minimum the rears will be also be replaced with the StopTech pads.

Also considering moving to CarboTech AX6 pads front and rear. They are in the mid to high GG range. The CarboTech pads are pricy, but front end sheet metal is even more so.

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[87geeinn]

The 24mm M/C isn't helping, should use a 7/8" M/C.

I stand corrected...I am using the 7/8" bore. Also I was drinking at the time of the post. If I don't like the Hawk pads, I will check out the ones you listed. Just did rear brakes with Wagner ThermoQuiet pads. Not sure what the composition of those are but I suspect they are harder than the ones I replaced. Maybe I'll switch them out with something softer as well.

Edit: I took a look at those CarboTech pads. I'm sure they would perform great...for a short while. My guess is they cause a lot of noise and don't last very long at all. Did a search and there was a Miata guy complaining about this and the fact that the copious amount of dust, when it gets wet, is nasty stuff. Hawk also makes their version of an autocross pad in their "HP Plus" lineup, p/n HB119N.594 which can be had for $72 on Amazon...half the price of the CarboTech pads. Since my car is a daily driver, I need something that isn't going to drain my wallet due to changing pads every six months. Always fun to experiment with different things though.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

A little more on the pad ratings, the two letter code should be printed on the edge of the pad. The first letter is the cold rating, the second is the hot rating. It represents the coefficient of friction, which defines how well the cars stops.

Code: Coefficient of Friction:

C Not over 0.15
D Over 0.15 but not over 0.25
E Over 0.25 but not over 0.35
F Over 0.35 but not over 0.45
G Over 0.45 but not over 0.55
H Over 0.55

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[87geeinn]

After digging in and researching brake pad materials, coefficient ratings, and what-not I realize now I'm probably leaving a lot on the table in regards to stopping power. The Wagner ThermoQuiet shoes that I just replaced on the rear are I believe are EE rated but I'm not sure. I couldn't find any detailed info on them. Same goes with the QuickStop shoes. I just ordered ACDelco 14514B shoes which are FF rated. I will update once I slap on the Hawk pads and softer shoes. I'm sure I will be happier with this setup.

 

[novaderrik]

what is your pedal ratio? you might need more leverage to hold better on the line..

also, keep in mind that most performance brake pads won't really work well until they get hot, so they might not work all that well for holding the car on the line at a drag strip but be awesome if you do a 1/2 hour long session on a road course..

 

[87geeinn]

what is your pedal ratio? you might need more leverage to hold better on the line..

also, keep in mind that most performance brake pads won't really work well until they get hot, so they might not work all that well for holding the car on the line at a drag strip but be awesome if you do a 1/2 hour long session on a road course..

I'm using the stock Powermaster pedal. I thought about maybe pulling the pedal and fabbing up a new post 1/2" higher than the current pivot point but decided against that. I'd rather just slap on new pads and go from there.

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

You are giving up 18% of the brake force by not using the proper pedal pivot point.

Be sure to post back about the Hawk 5.0 pads (once installed and bedded). They are a new compound, be interesting to hear how they are. There are quite a few folks that don't care for the current HP+ pads.

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[RmvBfrFlght]

Also, keep in mind that most performance brake pads won't really work well until they get hot, so they might not work all that well for holding the car on the line at a drag strip but be awesome if you do a 1/2 hour long session on a road course..

A pad that requires a 1/2 hour of road course to get up to temperature is not a pad I'd ever run or recommend for the street. The StopTech Street Performance brake pads don't need to be hot before they work.

The CarboTech AX6 pads are an autocross pad, again a low temperature application.

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[87geeinn]

Definitely will post results on the Hawk pads.

As far as the pivot point is concerned, how far up exactly should I have my pivot point? And what all is involved with modifying the stock power master pedal? Do I just drill a new hole and knock the pin out and reinstall and have it welded in?

Edit: Did a search and read over some of the threads on the pedal ratio. Seems like to get the optimal ratio, my pivot point should be 1/2" higher than the current spot. However, to do this would require removing the current pivot rod, welding up the hole, etc, etc. Might consider locating a vacuum pedal and modifying that one.

 

[87GNSteve]

When I had manuual brakes I used the vacuum pedal and put a pin in the hole that already exists on the vacuum pedal just above the vacuum pin, its in the right spot afterall.

 

[malibudave1978]

Austin,

The pushrod attachment point on the pedal should be where the pushrod intersects the brake pedal when the pushrod comes strait out the back of the master cylinder. There should be no up or down angle of the pushrod coming out the back of the master cylinder. It should be level and in the same plane as the center line of the brake master cylinder piston.

The rear ThermoQuiet Shoes are EE rated. I have them on my 1980 El Camino with manual brakes and rear, 7/8" bore, S-10 wheel cylinders. These brake shoes seem to work very well on the back. I can lock up the rear wheels if needed, but the cheaper, organic rear shoes should work even better on the street/or strip. You can buy two sets of the cheaper organics (NON ceramic), and run all the long side shoes as an option, for more fiction material and higher clamping of the brake drums.

I also use the top hole in the vacuum boosted pedal that was designed for manual brakes from the factory for a true 6 to 1 pedal ratio.

Most performance pads are designed for power equipped brakes. If you want to use one of the aftermarket performance brake pads, I would call them and let them recommend a pad for your driving needs. Spending over $70 for a set of pads to try them out, will get expensive if they do not work well on the street

In my opinion (for the money), a cheap, organic, semi metallic (NON ceramic) pad for the front will work best if this is street/drag strip car. Organic, semi metallic pads have a better "cold" bite, but the pads wear faster and dust more.

 

[87geeinn]

Austin,

The pushrod attachment point on the pedal should be where the pushrod intersects the brake pedal when the pushrod comes strait out the back of the master cylinder. There should be no up or down angle of the pushrod coming out the back of the master cylinder. It should be level and in the same plane as the center line of the brake master cylinder piston.

The rear ThermoQuiet Shoes are EE rated. I have them on my 1980 El Camino with manual brakes and rear, 7/8" bore, S-10 wheel cylinders. These brake shoes seem to work very well on the back. I can lock up the rear wheels if needed, but the cheaper, organic rear shoes should work even better on the street/or strip. You can buy two sets of the cheaper organics (NON ceramic), and run all the long side shoes as an option, for more fiction material and higher clamping of the brake drums.

I also use the top hole in the vacuum boosted pedal that was designed for manual brakes from the factory for a true 6 to 1 pedal ratio.

Most performance pads are designed for power equipped brakes. If you want to use one of the aftermarket performance brake pads, I would call them and let them recommend a pad for your driving needs. Spending over $70 for a set of pads to try them out, will get expensive if they do not work well on the street

In my opinion (for the money), a cheap, organic, semi metallic (NON ceramic) pad for the front will work best if this is street/drag strip car. Organic, semi metallic pads have a better "cold" bite, but the pads wear faster and dust more.

Thanks for the input David. As for an update, last night I threw the Hawk pads on which are FF rated, same as the ACDelco ceramic pads I was running up front BTW. I also replaced the EE rated ThermoQuiet shoes with FF rated ACDelco units. I then followed the proper bedding procedure and let it cool down. Went driving around this evening and noticed that the pads took about two stops before I noticed an actual difference. I'd say they work just fine but--as you alluded to, David--I would probably have similar results if I went with an inexpensive semi-metallic set vs. the Hawk pads...which I will probably do next time pads are needed.

I scored a vacuum pedal off eBay for $45 so that will be going on soon. That way I'll have the proper ratio.

 

[87geeinn]

Well, I contradicted myself regarding the master cylinder I'm using. After researching, I just verified the bore diameter of the S-10 master cylinder I'm using is 24mm (15/16"). For some reason, I always had it in my head as being 7/8". That said, I'm going to go with the Mopar 7/8" unit and found what I believe are the correct brass adapters for the brake line connections, here and here.

Questions: Will the Mopar MC bolt up to the stock Powermaster adapter plate on the firewall? Also, will the MC sit at the correct angle if the Powermaster adapter is used?

 

[RmvBfrFlght]

I don't recommend that Dorman M/C. I have one and the reservoirs are too small and the caps leak like a sieve. Plus with the black reservoirs, can't see the fluid level. It did look nice bolted up to the firewall.

The bolt spacing is narrower then the GM spacing. But that can be taken care of.

I currently have the Wagner MC115580 M/C. Note that this is also a Chrysler unit with the same 3/8-24 outlet sizes and bolt spacing (mounting). And is cast iron (ci) not aluminum. I used a powermaster mounting plate with the M/C bolts relocated.

For a GM ci M/C that has the proper outlet port sizes and mounting bolt spacing in 7/8" bore, check these:

7/8" C.I. bore manual brake master cylinder for a 1978 malibu, Wagner part number MC101252.
'80 Malibu 229 v6 manual: DORMAN Part # MC39166 7/8" bore

Looking at those on Rockauto I don't care for the reservoirs. They are highly angled which creates a small front reservoir. They also have a shallow dimple for the push rod which means that some sort of retainer is required to prevent the rod from falling out of the back of the M/C (no brakes).

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[malibudave1978]

The Edelmann adapter part number 258302 and 258350 will not work. I have purchased these and they are the opposite to what you will need. Part number 45045 from Classic Performance can be purchased at summitracing.com for $10 and has what you will need to connect a mopar master with 3/8-24 outlets to 9/16-18 and 1/2-20 brake line fittings.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-45045

A g-body master cylinder will not work without changing out the reservior. The only reservior that will innerchange with the g-body master cylinder, and that increases the volume in the reservior, is from a 4 wheel disc brake 1979 Buick Riviera. The 4 wheel drive Riviera master cylinder is 1.0" bore, which is too large for manual brakes on most applications.

Another 7/8" bore option is from a 1978 Chevrolet Monza. This master is designed to sit level with the ground (unlike a g-body master cylinder) but is 100% cast iron and does not have a pushrod retention cup in the master cylinder piston. But it has the correct GM mounting bolt pattern and has the correct 9/16-18 and 1/2-20 outlets for the stock brake line fittings. Some of the time, g-body manual brake master cylinders listed as 7/8" bore, get shipped as 24mm bores which, in my opinion, is too large for manual brakes on a stock brake g-body.

The Dorman part number M39736 master cylinder says it is 7/8" bore, but the ones I have bought have been 24mm. The Dorman master cylinder that has a 7/8" bore is part number M39451. This master cylinder is listed as a 21mm bore, but it is 7/8" bore. Another master cylinder that I know is 7/8" is a A1Cardone master cylinder part number 131945. This is also listed as a 21mm, but it is 7/8" bore from the ones I have bought.

ALWAYS measure the bore of the master cylinder and rear,manual brake, S10 wheel cylinders to make sure they are both 7/8" in diameter.

 

[87geeinn]

The Edelmann adapter part number 258302 and 258350 will not work. I have purchased these and they are the opposite to what you will need. Part number 45045 from Classic Performance can be purchased at summitracing.com for $10 and has what you will need to connect a mopar master with 3/8-24 outlets to 9/16-18 and 1/2-20 brake line fittings.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clp-45045

A g-body master cylinder will not work without changing out the reservior. The only reservior that will innerchange with the g-body master cylinder, and that increases the volume in the reservior, is from a 4 wheel disc brake 1979 Buick Riviera. The 4 wheel drive Riviera master cylinder is 1.0" bore, which is too large for manual brakes on most applications.

Another 7/8" bore option is from a 1978 Chevrolet Monza. This master is designed to sit level with the ground (unlike a g-body master cylinder) but is 100% cast iron and does not have a pushrod retention cup in the master cylinder piston. But it has the correct GM mounting bolt pattern and has the correct 9/16-18 and 1/2-20 outlets for the stock brake line fittings. Some of the time, g-body manual brake master cylinders listed as 7/8" bore, get shipped as 24mm bores which, in my opinion, is too large for manual brakes on a stock brake g-body.

The Dorman part number M39736 master cylinder says it is 7/8" bore, but the ones I have bought have been 24mm. The Dorman master cylinder that has a 7/8" bore is part number M39451. This master cylinder is listed as a 21mm bore, but it is 7/8" bore. Another master cylinder that I know is 7/8" is a A1Cardone master cylinder part number 131945. This is also listed as a 21mm, but it is 7/8" bore from the ones I have bought.

ALWAYS measure the bore of the master cylinder and rear,manual brake, S10 wheel cylinders to make sure they are both 7/8" in diameter.

Thanks for all the input David. Still debating on what MC to use only because I'm wanting to stay with a stepped-bore MC and not have to change out the calipers to non-low drag type to get them to work properly with a straight bore unit. After doing A LOT of research, I see that it is nearly impossible to find a 7/8" stepped-bore MC...much less one with an appropriate reservoir. However, there is a Volvo MC that might work but does not come without its own set of challenges. It is a 7/8" stepped-bore MC but comes with some funky line fittings in an oddball location. Anything is possible but it would take some engineering to make the appropriate connections. Conseqently, Volvo released a brochure--which is an interesting read on its own--claiming they are the first to utilize a stepped-bore MC. See page 20 of the attached .PDF. I may try it just to see how it works and simply for the challenge. I will have the vacuum pedal here by the weekend but won't be able to install it in the car due to work. I'm sure the new pedal ratio will come as a nice change. Can't believe I've spent the last three years driving around with a 24mm MC, EE rated brakes/shoes, and the Powermaster pedal.

I came up with a neat way of retaining the pushrod that works great: I simply found a large steel freeze plug that fit snug over the end of the bore and drilled a hole in the middle of it just slightly bigger than the pushrod. I cleaned and roughed up both surfaces and siliconed that bad boy in place. I let it sit overnight and it was on there very secure the next morning. As added insurance, I drilled and tapped the brake/cruise control switch bracket and installed a bolt that serves as a positive stop vs relying on the switches alone. I check on it periodically but it's been working great every since I converted over three years ago.

EDIT: I live on Oahu, Hawaii and most of the big parts stores are just ridiculous when it comes to shipping costs. Thank God for Amazon Prime. Also, I'm limited to O'Reilly and Napa around here. No Autozone or Advance on the island. Even then, 90% of the time they don't have what I need in stock....to include MCs.

 

[malibudave1978]

The Volvo master cylinder you listed above with Dorman part number M39297 is a step bore. The primary bore is 7/8", but the secondary, smaller bore is 5/8". A g-body step bore master cylinder is 1.25" primary bore and the secondary, smaller bore is 24mm. The Volvo master cylinder is too small and the g-body is too large for manual brakes, in my opinion.

Since the front calipers on g-bodies are used by s10 and third generation f-bodies, the years of use are from 1978 to 2004. Original calipers on g-bodies from 1978 - 1981 are NON low drag and use a 7/8" strait bore master cylinder from manual brake cars and 24mm strait bore for vacuum assisted cars. 1982 - 1997 calipers are LOW drag and use a step bore master cylinder. The s10 calipers from 1998 to 2004, should be, NON low drag and use a 1.0" strait bore master cylinder. All rebuilt brake calipers should be rebuilt to NON low drag standards unless the manufacturer list them as LOW drag. Usually the brake caliper part numbers are the same from 1978 to 2004. Any new aftermarket bolt in metric brake caliper should be rebuilt to NON low drag calipers.

The mopar master cylinder I have used is from a 1993 Dodge Shadow. These master cylinders where used in Chrysler FWD compact cars and mini vans started in 1978 and where used through about 1994. The newer ones are usually aluminum, where as the older models are cast iron. The newer master cylinders have 3 sizes. 21mm, 7/8", and 24mm.

 

[87geeinn]

I think that settles it for me. Will eventually go with the Chrysler MC w/Classic Performance fittings and replacement calipers. Only piece missing from this equation is which calipers to use. I know you did quite a few tests on your own with different calipers. Which non-low drag calipers did you end up liking the best for g-body? Wilwood? Regular '78-'81 calipers?

 

[malibudave1978]

In my opinion for the money spent, if using the stock brake system, going with a stock rebuilt caliper for a daily driver is the best bet for manual brakes. The 2.75" big bore Wilwoods I have are a very nice caliper, but it not worth the extra expense because I had to up size my master with it and I still have a 10.5" rotor with the same size brake pad. In hind sight, I would have kept the stock, NON low drag calipers (or bought rebuilt ones), a 7/8" or 21mm STRAIT bore master cylinder (if using rear drums), kept the stock size (0.75" for a daily driver) rear wheel cylinders, and went with an organic, semi metallic front pad and rear shoes. I still would still use flexible, stainless, steel brake lines instead of the rubber lines.

Usually the rebuilt caliper part numbers are the same from 1978 - 2004, so any year should be fine. The 1998 - 2004 S10s have 2.5"piston caliper versus earlier 2.38" piston calipers, but the part numbers are usually the same for earlier years. For the area that the piston contacts the pad, the size doesn't make a huge difference and you probably will not tell the difference between the 2.38" and 2.5".

For a daily driver/occasional drag car, I would not change much. If you can lock up your front tires, you have sufficient brakes. If you are trying to save as much weight as possible there are other options than stock brake systems. If you are road racing, there are other options other than the stock brake system.