Has anyone tried running a typhoon's ecm in a GN?

SubZero350

To boost or not to boost
Joined
May 26, 2001
I was wondering if anyone has tried running a $58 ECM in a turbo buick on here... When considering the expense of a "good" MAF translator, and the lack of processing power of the $t31 ECM, plus the fact that I already have the typhoon computer, chip, and programming ability for it, I would rather switch to speed density so the computer can actually register boost instead of reading it via calculation. I was just curious if there are any bumps in the road I should be looking for in this swap.
 
The only bump is it won't work.
The DIS code is entirely different from the Distributor stuff.
You might get it to run, but that's about all.

The 148 code is alot less buggy then the 749 code.

The loops operate at the same speed so the faster processor in the 749 is a mute point.

With a Direct Scan you over come the slower ALDL, so there really isn't any advantage to the 749.

If you were to study up on the 148 you'd see few ecms approach matching it.
 
The DIS still outputs a distributor reference pulse does it not? It still has the other three wires typical of the GM ignition system (i.e. bypass, ground, est). What do you mean by code? How do the FEL-PRO and DFI systems hook up to the buick? Do they have to run an interface for the DIS ignition? I don't understand your point about how many computers can't "match" the 148 ecm... Please explain. I just don't see how a computer designed in the early eighties even comes close to the "operating power" of one used in an early '90's vehicle.

The real reason why I want to do this is because I have recently done a MAF to Speed Density swap in my F-body and will not trade the gains in performance, tunability, and drivability for anything else. Granted, even the MAF ECM in the F-body was also capable of 8192 baud data line communications. The 148 ECM is only capable of 160 baud which makes tuning a pain. Besides, I can do so much more with the 7749's PROM then what the 148's can even come close to.

No flames intended, but have you actually tried this swap or are you just assuming it won't work?
 
Originally posted by SubZero350
The DIS still outputs a distributor reference pulse does it not? It still has the other three wires typical of the GM ignition system (i.e. bypass, ground, est). What do you mean by code? How do the FEL-PRO and DFI systems hook up to the buick? Do they have to run an interface for the DIS ignition? I don't understand your point about how many computers can't "match" the 148 ecm... Please explain. I just don't see how a computer designed in the early eighties even comes close to the "operating power" of one used in an early '90's vehicle.

The real reason why I want to do this is because I have recently done a MAF to Speed Density swap in my F-body and will not trade the gains in performance, tunability, and drivability for anything else. Granted, even the MAF ECM in the F-body was also capable of 8192 baud data line communications. The 148 ECM is only capable of 160 baud which makes tuning a pain. Besides, I can do so much more with the 7749's PROM then what the 148's can even come close to.

No flames intended, but have you actually tried this swap or are you just assuming it won't work?

Code is the instructions in the ecm.
An engine operates at insanely slow speeds compared to a computer. Newer, and faster, can just be overkill. If you're worried about CAFE numbers and building millions of cars then you can get worried about needing the processing power, for a race car, it's just overkill.

You need to ask FAST,
last I heard they haven't released their source code, so it's anyones guess about how they figure the ignition stuff.

Going to DS gets you over 12 frames a sec., and more depending on your laptop. ALDL rate is then mute.

How would I know the code is different if I haven't already investigated it?. I also looked at trying to use the 8253, and others.

If you go to a blow thru the MAF, it aint a resitriction like in your N/A application. But you need to convert to a Translator or Translator Plus.

Feel free to research the GMECM, and DIY-EFI archives, and read up on the differences tween the two ecms,
no flame intended.
 
no flame taken. we already have a 1227749 ecm, prom to work with, and programming software, as well as a 2-bar MAP sensor to try out to start with. We don't have direct link, or a maf translator, and really don't want to spend any money to get those two things at this time (unless we have to). like I said, we already have everything we need except the 3-bar sensor we will end up going to. hooking up the typhoon's puter is just a matter of re-pinning the gn's ecm connectors and tying a few injector wires together. I will let you all know how it goes.

P.S., DFI, Fel-PRO, etc, are ok, but I don't see the point in spending the money on something if the stock ecm (whether it be a GN or typhoon) can be tuned to handle the same powertrain.
 
Hey Subzero,

I think we are on the same wavelength about the 7749 conversion.

Have you had a chance to work with this at all?

This may be a topic worth discussing.



Tony
 
perhaps before you dive into trying to get an ecm with a faster baud rate for ALDL scantool usage you should see what Directscan is. It gets 18 frames per second from the GN ECM; it does not use the ALDL is is not subject to the baud rate restriction. It taps off the bus on the bottom of the ECM... You will get more data and faster from the GN ecm, using the stock ECM than you will with a ALDL based tool for the SY/TY ECM.

www.bmcomputersource.com/directscan.html

Im not trying to sell you anything, just trying to help.
 
Originally posted by BM Computer Src
perhaps before you dive into trying to get an ecm with a faster baud rate for ALDL scantool usage you should see what Directscan is. It gets 18 frames per second from the GN ECM; it does not use the ALDL is is not subject to the baud rate restriction. It taps off the bus on the bottom of the ECM... You will get more data and faster from the GN ecm, using the stock ECM than you will with a ALDL based tool for the SY/TY ECM.

www.bmcomputersource.com/directscan.html

Im not trying to sell you anything, just trying to help.

First of all, I want to put out any flames that may seem to come from the following reply. I intend no flames and would appreciate none as such but constructive critisism is always welcome.

I know what direct scan is. I know what it does, how it does it, and how it is connected as far as the website where it is sold. As I said before, direct scan is only one piece of the equation. Besides, we do not want to purchase direct scan which costs over $200.

As for the other parts of the equation, the stock GN puter is slow. I don't care how many ways you want to try to tell me that it doesn't matter, I believe it does and I have proof. Compare the difference between the drivability of an 87 Park Ave. that has a 3.8 and the same EFI/ECM system as the GN with an 89 LeSabre with a 3800 and newer computer. Now I understand the 89 3800 still used MAF but the computer was much faster than the GN's and has better drivability despite the differences in the engines. It is in the computer.

Case in point: I did a MAF to Speed Density conversion on my 87 GTA. Overall power increase on top end and 1/4 mile? Not really. Drivability better? Hell yes! Throttle response and around town driving manners approched a cadillac more than resembling the F-body I was in. The engine just responded quicker than with the slower MAF computer that still had 8192 baud data capabilities (unlike the GN).

What I think Speed Density will do for a boosted application that a MAF and even a MAF Translator system cannot using the stock ECM:

The first problem with a turbo car using MAF is that the MAF sensor cannot measure intake pressure directly. The ECM can only calculate it using RPM and MAF values. The problem with this does not lie in WOT fuel and spark tables, but at the PART THROTTLE levels.

The Ty/Sy ECM (7749) adjusts spark and fuel according to manifold pressure, vacuum or boost. This means that it will be much easier to adjust timing during non-boost conditions to make the most of non-boost accellerations. What does this mean to you? Probably nothing, but then again, I think more power is waiting to be unlocked by advancing the timing to the maximum level during non-boost conditions, to not only enhance part throttle drivability, but possibly reduce turbo lag time because the engine will be operating more efficiently without boost.

Can all this be done with the stock MAF system? I am sure it can, but not to the degree that is available with the newer available systems like the 7749. Besides, the 7749 has superior diagnostic capabilities, a faster processor, and more tuneable features than any GN computer out there. These are the very same reasons why I changed from MAF to SD on my GTA.

Again, I am not trying to say that the Sy/Ty computer system will outperform the GN system in all-out performance because, to my knowledge, it has not been tried. However, I do believe it will offer superior drivability than any older, MAF based system out there. Besides, if it doesn't work, we can always try the '95 3800 Supercharged OBDI system out which is already compatible with the LT1 MAF sensor. I will keep you posted on our progress...
 
Good luck with your experiment. I was not intending my post to be criticism, just trying to be helpful. I thought it was more likley that since you had mentioned baud rates and such, that you were looking for better scantool usage and were unaware of Directscan.

Bob
 
Originally posted by BM Computer Src
Good luck with your experiment. I was not intending my post to be criticism, just trying to be helpful. I thought it was more likley that since you had mentioned baud rates and such, that you were looking for better scantool usage and were unaware of Directscan.

Bob

not a problem... It was my fault in that I did not fully communicate my intentions in the first post.
 
Just my observations, but the Sy/Ty computer looks to be just one step up from the GN ECM. It appears to be the same one used on the late 80s turbo Sunbirds? Haven't cross referenced that, but the datastream looks to be suspiciously similar (as does the gauge cluster in the Sy/Ty! :))

We've actually been testing TurboLink with a local Sy/Ty (and getting right at 12 frames per second on a slower computer at the ALDL). It's pretty nifty in that it returns Boost, Desired boost, vacuum, MAP, and a calculated VE right in the datastream. It also returns BPW, and corrected BPW ... VERY cool stuff. LOTS of stuff that isn't in the GN code at all, regardless what scan tool you use.

The later (91-95) F-body ECMs are even better (as are the supercharged 3800 ECMs), in that they return things like BANK TO BANK O2 readings, BLM corrections, BLM cells, etc. You can see where they calculate individual cylinder events based on the readings from the O2s and firing events. Just WAAAAY cool.

That looks like the cat's meow ... but I'm sure it's more complicated to adapt that ECM to the GN.

Anyway, just sharing some stuff I've run across lately...
 
Yep, it has some good features. It does use the same ECM & program as the Sunbird.

The boost control is closed loop, which is why it shows desired boost & actual boost. The algorithm for it is pretty weak however, needs a PID setup on it IMO. We also have been datalogging an extra unused input, with wideband 02 sensors (the DIY flavor) so you can datalog that with a scan tool (if you use the appropriate code in the chip).

Ken, just a FYI, Datamaster offers a pretty slick setup for the Syty's already. Has option to display in 3 bar units also.

I think the world of your products & support, just don't want to see you invest too much time into a Syty project that may not produce the returns to justify your effort ;)


Now, if you want something that will sell to syty folks like hotcakes, get a Scanmaster setup done... Bob hasn't had time for it, Ron Gregory has had a working prototype done for several years now, just hasn't followed through on finishing it (always changing hardware, adding features).
 
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