Concern with T/A Motor - suggestions?

[GARY HARVEY]

It would not hurt to add a small can of ZMax the next oil change. Back in the 60s it was called Linkite. Works well in fresh engines and is not too much money.
I'd be patient about heading to the strip just yet and give your new bullet a chance to wear in a touch and little time to check things out and ending your concern about the smoke. If you really oiled up the exhaust system, it may be that the smoke is from your muffler(s) and it may take a bit of time to clear.
I won't go into what you may have to go thru in case for some reason you glazed a cylinder(s).

Gary

 

[Larry]

It would not hurt to add a small can of ZMax the next oil change. Back in the 60s it was called Linkite. Works well in fresh engines and is not too much money.
I'd be patient about heading to the strip just yet and give your new bullet a chance to wear in a touch and little time to check things out and ending your concern about the smoke. If you really oiled up the exhaust system, it may be that the smoke is from your muffler(s) and it may take a bit of time to clear.
I won't go into what you may have to go thru in case for some reason you glazed a cylinder(s).

Gary

I will look for the zmax - thanks. As for the track - there is no plan to get on it hard. I'd like to get the tires stuck so I can get some numbers to look over. And what may cause a glazed cyclinder? Honing? ring issue? How would I check for that? Thanks Larry

 

[Jeff Rand]

Larry,
For the money it cost for your TA block, they should have included a dyno sheet. It is really protection for both buyer and seller.
As for break in; I have been with Kenny and Richard Lee during a dyno run and they did not have much of a break in period before they hit it hard.
I have put the rings in dry and just used some 30 wt. oil on the skirts and with a slightly higher rpm at startup the rings break in during the first few minutes of run time. My last rebuild I used a powder form Total Seal (coat dry cylinders with it) and the ring break in was also very short.
Good luck this weekend. I am sure after the first successful run you will relax and just have some fun!
Jeff

 

[Nick Micale]

Larry, how did your car run yesterday? Just some mild test passes I assume?

 

[racerdude]

Hey I hope your not running a fram oil junker

 

[turbolou]

Reply!

The intake looked fine with a very clean throttle body. The PCV is a stock set up. I did have that out- its new, but I parts washed it and reinstalled.The check valve seemed fine. My Turbo is brand new also .I am going to be out of town tonight and tommarrow. Sunday. I am going to look into these suggestions you the others have brought up. I appreiciate the feed back alot. Hopefully, I can get back with you with good news. Thanks again. Larry

If your running the stock PVC set up & probably a felpro 1200 gasket with no pan to shield oil away from the valve.Your very likely to be sucking oil out of the lifter gallery. Don't know if thats the whole problem but it burned me once. I cured it by trimming the pan portion from a stock tin gasket & grafted it to the bottom of the manifold. I first tried elimiminating the valve & running open breathers but the fumes inside the car
were unbearable to the customer. Also in the past when ever I had an oil burner 99% of the time it was the turbo. With the down pipe out of the way or better yet with the turbo removed .Look carefully with a flash light for any oil signs deep behind the exaust wheel. I had a simular experience with a fresh motor & didn.t pay close enough atten. to that & tore the engine apart for nothing. That also was a new turbo. By the way are you familuar with a Mike Decker who lives near you? We may have a mutual friend.

 

[Larry]

If your running the stock PVC set up & probably a felpro 1200 gasket with no pan to shield oil away from the valve.Your very likely to be sucking oil out of the lifter gallery. Don't know if thats the whole problem but it burned me once. I cured it by trimming the pan portion from a stock tin gasket & grafted it to the bottom of the manifold. I first tried elimiminating the valve & running open breathers but the fumes inside the car
were unbearable to the customer. Also in the past when ever I had an oil burner 99% of the time it was the turbo. With the down pipe out of the way or better yet with the turbo removed .Look carefully with a flash light for any oil signs deep behind the exaust wheel. I had a simular experience with a fresh motor & didn.t pay close enough atten. to that & tore the engine apart for nothing. That also was a new turbo. By the way are you familuar with a Mike Decker who lives near you? We may have a mutual friend.

I did check behind the turbine wheel- dry as a bone. I am not sure why- but the smoking stopped after the 1st run yesterday! I do know Mike- he is a member of our club "WHEN HE SHOWS UP!! MIke where are you? He a good guy and alot of laughs. I responded to Nicks post with more details. Thanks for the information. Larry

 

[Larry]

Larry, how did your car run yesterday? Just some mild test passes I assume?

NIck, I could not be happier right now. When I loaded the car into the trailer the night before the track rental, it smoked so bad it chased me out. It was not pretty. Other than the smoke, everything else was looking and sounding good. It was hot Sunday 90+ degrees. I was nervous. The timing was set at 18 degrees for all 4 runs and the boost at 14#'s for the first three runs. I was hoping the 1/4 mile load on the motor may clear things out.
!st run- no burnout, no boost at launch, just walked it down the track shifting at 5000 rpm. Car ran 12.01 at 115 mph. I stopped on the return road and listened and looked - all appeared fine. When I got back to the pitts, club members told me it smoked when left and then stopped.
I was cooking for the crew so it was 1 1/2 hours later I got down again. No burnout, very little foot braking at the line. I walked it out and then got on it alittle - 11.08 at 121 mph max rpm - 5300. I got back to the pitts and was told no smoke at all!
Run 3 - I did a burnout, used the foot brake to 2-3#'s - I shifted at 5500 rpm. Car ran 10.89 at 121. Again- no smoke!
4th run- I moved the boost up to 16#'s (down the track). I did a burnout and used the foot brake at 5 -6 #'s to launch. I shifted at 6000 rpm max. Car ran 10.7 at 124 mph.
I was very happy with the day. Despite the heat - the car ran cool with the stock radiator and Jack Cottons front mount intercooler. I feel now I can get with Jack and move the program up. WIth time I would like to shift at 7000+ at 24#'s boost and timing, but- I am not in a hurry. THe car has alot more in it and I want to enjoy it.
I just can not explain the oil burning. It did however clear up after the 1st run Sunday. I have 330 miles on the motor now and from here on out it will have limited street miles put on it. Things are looking good right now. Thanks Larry

 

[EightSecV6]

NIck, I could not be happier right now. When I loaded the car into the trailer the night before the track rental, it smoked so bad it chased me out. It was not pretty. Other than the smoke, everything else was looking and sounding good. It was hot Sunday 90+ degrees. I was nervous. The timing was set at 18 degrees for all 4 runs and the boost at 14#'s for the first three runs. I was hoping the 1/4 mile load on the motor may clear things out.
!st run- no burnout, no boost at launch, just walked it down the track shifting at 5000 rpm. Car ran 12.01 at 115 mph. I stopped on the return road and listened and looked - all appeared fine. When I got back to the pitts, club members told me it smoked when left and then stopped.
I was cooking for the crew so it was 1 1/2 hours later I got down again. No burnout, very little foot braking at the line. I walked it out and then got on it alittle - 11.08 at 121 mph max rpm - 5300. I got back to the pitts and was told no smoke at all!
Run 3 - I did a burnout, used the foot brake to 2-3#'s - I shifted at 5500 rpm. Car ran 10.89 at 121. Again- no smoke!
4th run- I moved the boost up to 16#'s (down the track). I did a burnout and used the foot brake at 5 -6 #'s to launch. I shifted at 6000 rpm max. Car ran 10.7 at 124 mph.
I was very happy with the day. Despite the heat - the car ran cool with the stock radiator and Jack Cottons front mount intercooler. I feel now I can get with Jack and move the program up. WIth time I would like to shift at 7000+ at 24#'s boost and timing, but- I am not in a hurry. THe car has alot more in it and I want to enjoy it.
I just can not explain the oil burning. It did however clear up after the 1st run Sunday. I have 330 miles on the motor now and from here on out it will have limited street miles put on it. Things are looking good right now. Thanks Larry

Glad things are working out for you Larry, sounds like that thing is going to fly!

 

[turbolou]

Reply

I did check behind the turbine wheel- dry as a bone. I am not sure why- but the smoking stopped after the 1st run yesterday! I do know Mike- he is a member of our club "WHEN HE SHOWS UP!! MIke where are you? He a good guy and alot of laughs. I responded to Nicks post with more details. Thanks for the information. Larry

Great news!I wonder if the oil rings were sticking since the engine sat around for so long. I also am orginally from Buffalo. I will be on vacation there at the end of August. I'll also be looking up Mike. I was the one who was only suppose to build his engine & wound up finishing his whole car.While he & his crew consumed more beer than I thought could ever be possible.We tested the car at a local track it ran low 11's with too loose of a convertor. We were asked to leave & not return without a roll bar & something other than a motor cycle helmet. That was two years ago & the one and only time the car ever seen the track.Last I heard Mike is pursueing a sponsorship from the local AA chapter.

 

[Larry]

Great news!I wonder if the oil rings were sticking since the engine sat around for so long. I also am orginally from Buffalo. I will be on vacation there at the end of August. I'll also be looking up Mike. I was the one who was only suppose to build his engine & wound up finishing his whole car.While he & his crew consumed more beer than I thought could ever be possible.We tested the car at a local track it ran low 11's with too loose of a convertor. We were asked to leave & not return without a roll bar & something other than a motor cycle helmet. That was two years ago & the one and only time the car ever seen the track.Last I heard Mike is pursueing a sponsorship from the local AA chapter.

Oil rings hanging up is a possibility. The motor sat in my garage for 8 months.
Your story concerning Mike is no surprise - that is too funny. When it comes to turning them upside down, I would put money on Mike and his buddy TurK anytime. They can put it away. And I do remember all that stuff about the track and your getting ousted! If you are up this way - give me a call. Im in the book and live 25 min from Mike. Larry

 

[turbolou]

Reply!

Oil rings hanging up is a possibility. The motor sat in my garage for 8 months.
Your story concerning Mike is no surprise - that is too funny. When it comes to turning them upside down, I would put money on Mike and his buddy TurK anytime. They can put it away. And I do remember all that stuff about the track and your getting ousted! If you are up this way - give me a call. Im in the book and live 25 min from Mike. Larry

Thanks I will take you up on that! Meanwhile keep up the good work. Regards Lou

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

I'll go out on a limb and say there is another possibility to your problem

(IF) they only lubed the valves with oil when assembling the heads and it sat for 8 months with no seals on the valves then it is real possible that the oil drained down the valves and you then had no lube between the valves and guides apon start up

had it had seals on it then the oil would have stayed there due to the vacuum created when the oil tried to drain down

It is possible that the valve stems gauled the guides and what you found in the filter could be bronze guide material

the seals being installed should fix most of the smoking but if this is the case it wont be long before the guides get chewed up and the valves just start moving all around and beat the seats up in the heads and not seal up

I would atleast pull the springs off one at a time and while holding the valve up release the air pressure in the cylinder so you can spin the valves and see if they spin smoothly and take note if any of them have excessive side to side movement

must be carefull not to drop one of the valves
you may want to have someone rotate the motor over while you hold the valve up to bring that piston up to tdc so if it slips out your hand the piston will catch it

 

[Larry]

I'll go out on a limb and say there is another possibility to your problem

(IF) they only lubed the valves with oil when assembling the heads and it sat for 8 months with no seals on the valves then it is real possible that the oil drained down the valves and you then had no lube between the valves and guides apon start up

had it had seals on it then the oil would have stayed there due to the vacuum created when the oil tried to drain down

It is possible that the valve stems gauled the guides and what you found in the filter could be bronze guide material

the seals being installed should fix most of the smoking but if this is the case it wont be long before the guides get chewed up and the valves just start moving all around and beat the seats up in the heads and not seal up

I would atleast pull the springs off one at a time and while holding the valve up release the air pressure in the cylinder so you can spin the valves and see if they spin smoothly and take note if any of them have excessive side to side movement

must be carefull not to drop one of the valves
you may want to have someone rotate the motor over while you hold the valve up to bring that piston up to tdc so if it slips out your hand the piston will catch it

I believe the stems had sufficient oil at startup. I say that because I prelubed it with the valve covers off and there was ALOT of oil up on the rockers - it overflowed the heads big time. Actually, I had to make a makeshift dam to keep the oil inside the head area. Time will tell.
I am tied up until next week anyway. IN the interim I need to fix a glitch with the transmission. Suddenly I have to Park - the car just rolls. Gotta pull the pan and see whats going on with the linkage inside. Hopefully, I do not have to pull it. Thanks for the thoughts.. Larry

 

[TAPerf]

Well, I just sat here tonight and read this entire thread, most of which has been news to me. The last time I spoke to Larry he called me about the oil up in the heads. I did tell him to just install seals and run it, as far as the deeper oil pan suggestion, still feel strong about it. Now for the reason we have been leaving the seals off these turbo engines is simple, under boost both the intake and exhaust are under pressure. Oil has a very hard time traveling down the guides with air blowing up. Remember this engine was asked to make 850+ HP, sorry, not a church going cruiser. This is a race engine. Myself and Rick felt that the lack of valve seals would only make sure we had oil on the valves and guides during hard throttle conditions, more important than idle. I also took the time to call Kenny Duttweiler for conformation on this topic, he agreed and does the same on some engines.
When Larry called to talk to me about the oil up top he asked me to get him a spring compressor tool and valve seals. The tool had to be special ordered through T&D, it was not a stocking item. The next time we heard from Larry is when the tool showed up back at TA with a letter giving me the feeling of unhappiness. Well, I immediately tried to call Larry on three different numbers I had for him. WK,HM,& Mob left messages on all three. Then turned in the paper work to refund the monies for the Special Ordered spring compressor and seals. I never received a return call to this day.
Larry was to be give the seals but the girls in the office mistakenly charged him. He never even called to tell me he received the parts in the first place. The day before they showed up I had sat down twice to call Larry just to see how things were going but got interrupted. The letter was a surprise to say the least. After reading this thread I was surprised Larry has never mentioned his refunds or that he has never called TA. Not fair on such a public forum.
We have other engines out with similar builds, Glen Calahan, no seals, Total Seal Rings and no oil smoke. Started up on 10-30 motor oil and run hard on Lens dyno in Vegas 9.80's. Dave England's engine never got a good chance to break in, no full hard runs, turbo trouble. Yes, it did smoke at idle. But like Dave told us he never had a turbo engine pull 21 inches of vacuum at idle. Good machine work, Total Seal Rings, and cam choice I guess, don't really know. We will most likely put seals at least on the intake valves when it comes back.
In closing I would like to say I am a Buick racer, I'm not here to make your car hobby a unfun time. We try very hard at TA to give you folks the very best parts and service we can. And like the charge for the seals shows people can make mistakes. You fix them the best you can and move on. Being informed does help. I hope things continue to work out for Larry as I feel he is a very nice guy. Remember Larry, cooler heads prevail. Maybe you can find some time to give me a call and tell me about the ride.

Good luck
Mike Tomaszewski
TA Performance Products Inc.
480-922-6807

 

[Big Stu]

Nice to see you around mike. Glen's motor is awesome, that pass in vegas was made without second gear in the tranny I might add.

 

[n20junkie]

Mike,
I know larry personally, and i know that he ment ABSOLUTLY NO BAD towards TA perf, he just wrote what he did, and if it sounded bad then thats just the internets lack of feeling comming threw, he is happy with the engine, and if he wasn't he would of called and said something. He realizes that it is a race engine, and wanted to sort it out his self. You guys did your part, now its his to get her running, which he did. I am sure i am dead on how he feeels, but if i am wrong please correct me larry.
Grant

 

[EightSecV6]

I am glad T/A posted on the board in regards to their end of the story and this thread didnt turn into a slam fest! I never took Larry's post as if he were upset with T/A. I am glad this has worked out for Larry and he is satisfied with his engine, it sounds like it is going to fly!. Mike is of course no dummy and I am sure he wouldnt send out anything less than perfect! They are currently developing a bunch of new parts for the V6 that are not being advertised just yet but will be welcomed by the heavy hitters for sure. Crank it up Larry and keep us posted! Hopefully guys like Mike T will continue to support our "hobby"!

 

[Larry]

Well, I did get to the track tonight, but late and got only one run in. I moved the timing up to 21 from 18. I moved the boost up to 21 from 16. THis was my 5th run on the motor. After the last runs acouple weekd ago, I noticed the rear tires were hitting the burnout shields I made for the rear inner fender wells so I was unable to use the transbrake as yet for fear it may squat to far as to damage these shields. I used the foot brake and came out at 10 pounds. Car ran good through 1st and mid way through 2nd. It then started to miss alittle and then in 3rd gear it would not turn over 5900 rpm. I got off it early and it still ran its best yet at 10.47 - through the traps at 110 mph!!
EGT was 1700 max, there was minimal fuel makeup (2) and the timing was consistent at 21. Down track boost was 20.3. So I am assuming the knock sensor was not shutting the timng down.
Im not sure why it did not PULL in late 2nd and throughout 3rd gear. Seemed to just hang there! I want to shift at 7000- 7500. The only thing I changed internally since my last visit, was adjusting the rockers -- ex. .016 and the intake to .014 I will think it over this weekend. If you have any thoughts - leave them here. Note- like it just ran out of cam - no way, its a solid 236-236 roller. Larry

 

[EightSecV6]

Sounds like it is in the program, you turned up the boost and the fuel map was not calibrated in that area. Did you log the pass? EGT is not a good method of tuning.