Anyone replace either rod bearings or mains in the car successfully?

[Bob Avellar]

Took the motor out tonight. Pulled only the rod bearings. They all were OK except for the #2 rod bearing. Crank is scored and will have to be turned (.010 I hope). I'll start taken it all apart tomorrow. I guess I will have the rods resized as well as turnig the crank. I want to reuse my stock pistons if I can. and just hone the cylinders. Just got to figure out where I am going to take it. I just want the short block assembled and i will do the rest. Didn't check the mains yet but I'm thinking they may be ok like the other rod journals. We will see.

 

[ThikStik]

Bob,
Sorry if itwas already written, but what happened on dyno to hurt motor?
Good luck. Pray to the oil pressure gods!

 

[Rickracer]

Be sure to check your rod side clearance...

...when you are assembling it yourself, a lot of machine shops don't mention the need or have you check it. Rod side clearance has a pretty fair effect on oil pressure, if there is too much, your oil pressure will never be up to par, and the rods should be replaced. Poston's has new stock rods for not too much more than re-sizing and shotpeening an old set. I'm sure there are other, possibly better sources too. Do yourself a favor and measure it before you get the shortblock all apart, so you'll know if the rods are worth fixing.

 

[Bob Avellar]

Originally posted by ThikStik
Bob,
Sorry if itwas already written, but what happened on dyno to hurt motor?
Good luck. Pray to the oil pressure gods!

The 1st two dyno pulls resulted in a big backfire through the exhaust at high rpms. The cause as best I can determine was too rich a fuel mixture. Fuel was being supplied by 93 octane gas and a lot of methanol being injected. I took 10 percent fuel out with the Translator + and then it ran clean. However , I may have over revved the motor on the 3rd run. Dyno chart showed over 6000 rpm and somewhere around 120 mph in 3rd gear. I probably stayed in in too long, too. I have a problem with my foot sometimes- it doesn't want to lift off the gas pedal. Didn't notice any knock until I left the dyno gathering and headed out to the highway. My car has never run well on a dyno for some reason. Always ran fine on the street. The tranny even didn't want to upshift 1-2 or 2-3 until very high rpms. No problem with it on the street though. Others did not seem to experience the same problem.

 

[Bob Avellar]

I decided to order an ATK engine . I'll be ordering it in the a.m. Been doing a lot of research both on the boards and my buddy at the local auto parts store. I haven.t heard of too many of them blowing up even though they may be a mix of parts. At least i will have the car again and maybe I can rebuild my motor a litttle at a time as $$ allows. Just told the wife this evening and she took it pretty good. The fact that I started building new kitchen cabinets must have helped. She didn't say much-she just went to bed. The motor is $1499. + $170 core charge. No sales tax or shipping charge and 2-4 days delivery estimate. Hope it stays together. Most of them seem to stand up to abuse pretty well according to what I have seen posted. I regularly run 25 lbs boost on 93 and alky. Maybe I should yurn it down a tad. Uhhh, probably not. What the heck it comes with a 3 yr warranty on parts AND labor and unlimited mileage. We will see.

 

[Rickracer]

Bob, I hope you haven't ordered yet

Over the years, I have decent luck with ATK Engines, but the last few years it's been all bad. And good luck with that warranty. I wouldn't use an ATK now if they were half price. If you want a good quality rebuilt motor, give the folks at Jasper Engines a call. They have a 3 year - 75,000 mile warranty that they stand behind, and they have some experience at building performance motors too.

 

[Bob Avellar]

Too late!!!! Now I negative feedback on these motors. Couldn't find much in the way of negative info in all my searches. Care to fill me in?

 

[Red Regal T]

Mix of parts is correct. Unless you disassemble it, you'll have no idea what's in it. I doubt you'll have a turbo crank or pistons. Doubt you'll get a standard NA crank. I have two locals with them. One guy had a push rod shorter than the others and trouble with oil pressure finally fixed at the moment. The timing cover was totally worn out. I also don't think it has a turbo camshaft because performance is not up to snuff. However, he still has the motor in after about 10,000 miles. Another local guy bought one and wiped the mystery camshaft. The motor has less than 100 miles on it. They said they'd look at it if he sends it to them. They'll fix it if they deem it's their fault. They put them together the same if they were assembling a motor for some junk NA Regal. Wish I had better things to say.

 

[Rickracer]

I did an ATK motor in a customers car....

...(their choice)it was an Olds 350. I priced an ATK and a Jasper for them. Jasper was like $400 more, and they chose ATK. Less than 3 months later, the camshaft snapped off right behind the timing gear. Ok, sh*t happens, put in the replacement, a couple weeks later the car was hit in the rear sitting in the street, and spent several months in the body shop. He finally gets it out, drives it maybe 6 months, and the camshaft snaps again. This time ATK says we have to pay for another motor in order to get a replacement, ship it to them, and if it's their fault, they will refund the payment. Or, ship it to them and wait for them to check it out and maybe send a replacement. The customer didn't want to pay for another motor, and neither did I, so we sent it and waited.....and waited......and waited......and waited. We almost spent more time waiting than the life of the first motor motor. The first two motors ran OK, (not great), but the 3rd one was a dog. ATK can kiss my posterior.

 

[POPA]

sorry it too late but I can tell you about another bad experience with there rebuilds. now this is only on a 2L chevy but same type issues. First engine could not get to start popping and farting,three days later and three or four people ,some ASE types, discovered that the cam was not even the correct one for the motor!!! calls to them resulted in them NOT being able to verify the correct one was installed! I will say this after a month we had another motor and it started and sounded good. PS to this is that same motor that did run about 6K miles later now has a hole in the side of the block large enough to put a fist into!! but still starts and runs??

see if there is any way to cancel and call Jaspers!!

 

[87buick3825]

Sorry but for $1400 what do you expect ??? That wouldnt even cover parts . I have installed one for a friend . It was .040 over , ran good BUT NO power . One thing is is that you can drive the car ...Just dont know how fast

 

[MaxVO2]

Honestly, if you have a problem with your foot not being able to lift off the gas, or you drive the car pretty heavy-footed, I would set the boost VERY low, conservative timing, etc. Forget taking it to the track or looking to improve it's performance. It's just going to be a driver until you can build it up right. Others on this thread are right, the ATK motors are generally a mix of parts, and ok with some luck for a daily driver/grocery getter.

Unless you are one really lucky person or like to live dangerously, I would STRONGLY recommend you at least pull the rods/mains and check clearances with a mic, as well as pull the timing cover to make sure the cover isn't scored, and that the timing gears are on good and tight. Since our motors tend to have pretty scary low oil pressure even when working well, it won't hurt to check rod side clearance, as well as the oil pump gears.

Yes, it's a PITA. The extra 5,10,15 hours of your life you spend doing the above will seem as nothing if you compare it to the heartache of finding out the timing gear bolts, or one of the mains, etc.. were not torqued to spec after you have the motor in the car, get it running, and (God forbid, I speak from experience..) have to ask the wife to help you push it back into the garage...

On to happier subjects... At least you have your health!

Billy

 

[Bob Avellar]

Oh, so now you guys come out of the woodwork. I look forward to blowing this motor up and setting fire to the whole freakin car. Probably time to move on to something else anyway. Wish this info was in the archives. Oh well maybe someone else will benefit from my mistakes. Motor has already been shipped - and I probably couldn't get a motor in my car any other way by next year due to $$. When she blows I'll be done with her.

 

[Pronto]

I'll give you 2k for it as it sits

 

[Rickracer]

Bob, I wish you had asked before ya plunked down the cash

Is there no way you can send it back? The customer I was referring to is involved in legal action with ATK now.

 

[Bob Avellar]

Re: Bob, I wish you had asked before ya plunked down the cash

Originally posted by Rickracer
Is there no way you can send it back? The customer I was referring to is involved in legal action with ATK now.

I don't know. I will take a look at it when it arrives to see what's in it and check some clearances. Maybe if I can tell them it is not up to factory specs for a turbo motor they will take it back? I dunno. Problem is I can't afford to do anything different as far as I know. I don't forsee my circumstances changing in the near future either so... I can't stand being without the car.Jaspers only lists turbo motors thru 1985-no 86-87 apps. I think the 85 was at least $2200-2300 with a core.

 

[Blown&Injected]

You can ask them if they will take it back. When they ask why, you can tell them that you just learned that ATK does not really have turbo engines so when one is ordered, you just drill and tap the oil return hole for the turbo and call it a turbo engine resulting in engine failure.

Of course they will say they build great engines and that when they sell a turbo engine they build and deliver a turbo engine and they warrantee the engines.

Now that they reaffirmed their engine and warrantee. Tell talk is cheap and you will be summarizing the conversation and sending it to you (get a manager or some authority on the line) for confirmation. Say I just want to be clear because you have recently read some horror stories about ATK.

Hope it works for you.

 

[Rickracer]

Sometimes....

I think the 85 was at least $2200-2300 with a core.

...you get what you pay for, sometimes not. With Jasper, you've got a whole lot better chance of getting what you pay for. Maybe you should try to have them check to see if they have any later blocks to build.

 

[Bob Avellar]

Thought this might be interesting to read. The motor is listed as a DB43. They have a chat room online to ask questions. This is a copy of the chat. He disappeared before answering the last questions:
Allen: How may I help you?
Allen: How may I help you?
Visitor: #DB43 is for a turbo Grand National?
Allen: YES
Visitor: #DB43 is also the same # for a regular Buick Regal on your site
Visitor: These motors have different cranks, pistons, and head gaskets from the factory
Visitor: And oil return hole @ the front of the block
Visitor: If I order a turbo motor how do I-You know if it has the correct internals for a turb application?
Allen: yes, it's at the front of the lifter galley
Visitor: Cranks for NA and turbo are the same casting BUT turbo cranks came with rolled fillets at the sides of both the main AND rod journals.
Allen: because it's guaranteed to have them. We build them to factory specs for the turbo
Visitor: For strength
Visitor: You are aware of the 2 different cranks?
Visitor: Since cylinder pressures are higher in a turbo motor they can't use a head gasket designed for a normally aspirated motor. They will blow out at stock boost levels.
Allen: Yes, I understand
Allen: we build them with special turbo head gaskets
Allen: we are VERY familiar with building turbo engines
Visitor: Not trying to play games-just want to be certain that the internals are as strong as originally designed. I don't understand the same part # for both motors?
Visitor: Do you know who mmanufactures the pistons?
Visitor: This is not a race car but I would like something that will give longevity. My original went 300,000 with 1 rebuild
Visitor: At 150,000
Visitor: I have only heard of 1 complaint and many more satisfied people
Visitor: So I am leaning towards your company.
Visitor: Can you explain the same part #S ?
Visitor: Front cover and oil pump is included?
Visitor: Sorrry for all the questions
Allen: oil pump is included but not timing cover
Visitor: Oil pump is part of the front cover so???
Allen: then an oil pump kit is included
Visitor: OK
Visitor: How can your people tell the difference between a turbo motor and NA motor if they use the same part #?
Allen: different casting numbers
Allen: and different pistons, etc
Allen: different insides
Visitor: Also the block used for an 87 is not the same block used by an 85 motor. Different casting, thicker at the webs and beefier lifter valley. The 86-87 casting is referred to as a 109 casting because the last #s of the casting end with 109.
Visitor: Is that what I'd receive if ordered for an 87 GN?
Visitor: A 86 or 87 block with the "109"?
Allen: DB43 used a casting # ending in 109 and 139 and 140 and 801 and 898
Visitor: ALL 86-87 turbo motors used the 109 casting _without exception.
Visitor: Stronger casting.
Allen: the turbo engine has an oil drain back in front of the lifter valley
Allen: ok
Visitor: Earlier yrs used the 139 I think. I just would like to be assured of gettting the correct 109 casting.
Allen: I can't guarantee that because the factory used all the numbers listed above
Visitor: Car was just restored and then the motor developed a rod knock 2 weeks later.
Visitor: Not for the turbo motors. Trust me I have dealt with these cars since 1985 and only Nothing but 109 castings were used for 86-87 models. There is a lot of misinformation out there.
Visitor: If there is a way to receive the proper 109 block and a true turbo crank I will be sold. Or I will rebuild mine. I know if this could be guaranteed other owners of these cars would not be afraid to purchase these.
Visitor: You must think I am a pita.
Visitor: Nothing but 109 castings were used for 86-87 models. There is a lot of misinformation out there.you: If there is a way to receive the proper 109 block and a true turbo crank I will be sold. Or I will rebuild mine. I know if this could be guaranteed other owners of these cars would not be afraid to purchase these.you: You must think I am a pita.
Visitor: Is there no way?
As you can tell he was not fully informed.

 

[ThikStik]

Bob,
How about getting Allen head to send you a certified letter stating that the motor is a turbo motor with the specs you require. Or no,... send him a letter stating the GN motor specs and get them to sign it , which they wont, and now yolull have grounds to send unit back. Save yourself the pain ....Just dont use it . Hot rodding anymore , has become a hobby of wills. It has never been this bad. Squalid cratsmanship or taiwanese new parts, it never ends.Good luck.