Anybody tried this additive?

[Darth Fiero]

Sta-Bil website

Says on the bottle it can be used in automobile engines. Not sure if it can render the corrosive properties of E85 fuel inert enough so it can be used with your mild steel, aluminum, and rubber fuel system parts though. Just wondering if anyone has tried this stuff to see if kept the damaging effects of the ethanol in-check...

 

[1outlaw]

This chart might answer your question best- "is it even needed?" To use this chart type click on the name "alcohol-ethyl" in the right hand box, then click on the submit button. Study those- you will find a good rating for aluminum. Next- just for fun do the same thing all over again for "gasoline-high aromatic" aluminum drops to "D-severe effect" --this is the gas we had in the 80's. If you run the same on unleaded the aluminum gets a very favorable rating. It is interesting that many of the things blamed on "gasohol" back in the 80's were just as much an issue with the gas of the day (aromatics such as benzene topped out in that era). Here is the link;

Cole-Parmer: Chemical Resistance Database

Now here is an elastomer chart (hoses/seals) just for more fun- on this chart select ethyl alcohol (ethanol) and take a good look at what is compatable and what is less so--then put in gasoline and watch the chart go a lot more red (not acceptable);

DPECRG - General Chemical Resistance Guide

Now in real life your use can make a difference- in an open vented carb'ed race car used infrequently corrosion is more likely especially in a very moist climate like Houston, New Orleans, or Seattle. In today's cars with sealed fuel systems and with daily driving it seems to be a non-issue though one should watch where dissimilar metals are used in connectors (just to be cautious). Part of this is because ALL fuel grade ethanol must contain corrosion inhibitor and is ph balanced. Inside my fuel dispensers I have aluminum fuel filter bases that are 6 years old, have had well over a million gallons of E85 thru them, and are as bright as the day they were put into use. Fuel transport trailers are aluminum. In an ethanol plant the only stainless steel used stops at the molecular sieves where the ethanol goes from 190 proof (95% pure) to 200 proof (annhydrous- dry alcohol). From there on the product is in mild steel piping and storage tanks.

That's my 10 cents worth LOL. Many of these additive products are oversold with scare tactics though it likely has value in a small engine that is going to sit for 6 months. It boils down to what you are comfortable with and if your situation calls for extraordinary measures.

 

[Darth Fiero]

Good points. However, I have a personal experience with E85 I would like to share.

A few years ago when E85 was first being offered in my area, I took a shot at using it in my 87 Fiero. Before I did, I pulled my tank and installed a new Walbro pump and inspected everything. Basically my Fiero's fuel system used the same type of materials your 87 Buick GN's use (mild steel, rubber, etc).

I ran straight E85 for about the entire summer. Car ran great and the Turbo 3800 loved it. At the end of the season, I pulled my tank to inspect the inside. What I found was the sending unit (fuel lines that go down to the fuel pump and the bottom of the tank) was turning black in color. It appeared to be some kind of corrosion. The metal collar that was on my walbro pump was starting to turn white (corroding), and the rubber fuel line that I got with the walbro to attach it to my sending unit had swelled to about twice its normal size.

The rubber fuel line issue could possibly be explained by what I read on the net about some manufacturers not including approved in-tank-use rubber fuel line with their fuel pump kits. I had seen this swelling up problem happen in other non-E85 situations so I could explain that away. However, what I could not explain was the corrsion buildup on my sending unit's metal parts or the metal collar on the walbro pump. I noticed some of the black "corrosion" material must have come off the sending unit because I saw very small particles of it laying in the bottom of my tank.

Now my tank has a plastic baffle in it that did not appear to be affected by the use of E85. Nor did the metal inside of the tank which appeared to have some kind of coating on it that the sending unit did not have.

Now the question I have is: Does the E85 we get at the gas pump today have better corrosion inhibitors in it than what I used just a few years ago that will stop these problems I experienced?

 

[bsdlinux]

Good points. However, I have a personal experience with E85 I would like to share.

A few years ago when E85 was first being offered in my area, I took a shot at using it in my 87 Fiero. Before I did, I pulled my tank and installed a new Walbro pump and inspected everything. Basically my Fiero's fuel system used the same type of materials your 87 Buick GN's use (mild steel, rubber, etc).

I ran straight E85 for about the entire summer. Car ran great and the Turbo 3800 loved it. At the end of the season, I pulled my tank to inspect the inside. What I found was the sending unit (fuel lines that go down to the fuel pump and the bottom of the tank) was turning black in color. It appeared to be some kind of corrosion. The metal collar that was on my walbro pump was starting to turn white (corroding), and the rubber fuel line that I got with the walbro to attach it to my sending unit had swelled to about twice its normal size.

The rubber fuel line issue could possibly be explained by what I read on the net about some manufacturers not including approved in-tank-use rubber fuel line with their fuel pump kits. I had seen this swelling up problem happen in other non-E85 situations so I could explain that away. However, what I could not explain was the corrsion buildup on my sending unit's metal parts or the metal collar on the walbro pump. I noticed some of the black "corrosion" material must have come off the sending unit because I saw very small particles of it laying in the bottom of my tank.

Now my tank has a plastic baffle in it that did not appear to be affected by the use of E85. Nor did the metal inside of the tank which appeared to have some kind of coating on it that the sending unit did not have.

Now the question I have is: Does the E85 we get at the gas pump today have better corrosion inhibitors in it than what I used just a few years ago that will stop these problems I experienced?

Just so you know, maybe you do maybe you don't. if you put E85 on plastic lets say black plastic. When it dries there will be a white residue, obviously not corrosion but nonetheless a white residue. This could have been what you saw. Corrosion will leave pitting, did you check to see if there was pitting?

E-85 for 3 years here in the White-T and the car sits a a lot issues so far

 

[Darth Fiero]

Just so you know, maybe you do maybe you don't. if you put E85 on plastic lets say black plastic. When it dries there will be a white residue, obviously not corrosion but nonetheless a white residue. This could have been what you saw. Corrosion will leave pitting, did you check to see if there was pitting?

E-85 for 3 years here in the White-T and the car sits a a lot issues so far

Yes there was pitting (very very small amount) once I cleaned the layer of black "corrosion" off the sending unit. Another guy in our community has been running E85 for a while now and he has gone thru several walbro pumps and just posted up a pic of his now-rusty sending unit a few weeks ago. He has since replaced his walbro pump with a factory E85-compatible pump (from a ford?) but I never got a straight answer out of him whether or not his sending unit was always that rusty from day one (before he started using E85) or not.

My concern is not only about the integrity of the sending unit itself (since I cannot buy new replacements anymore) but rather, where does all of this corrosion/rust debris end up? The filter isn't going to catch it all, and even if it does, it would be bad to have it clog while I'm running down the dragstrip.

On the other side of the coin, I'm encouraged to hear so many of you have been running E85 with stock GM fuel system components for a long time. I would very much like to use E85 but not at the expense of my fuel system's components. Even if it takes years to destroy them. Has anybody been running E85 for a number of years in their 100% bone stock fuel systems (except of course for the fuel pump and regulator which I know usually get changed when modding) and verified NO DAMAGE has been done to their stock fuel system components?

 

[1outlaw]

A year ago a Walbro rep was wanting used Walbro pumps that had been running E85. His offer at the time was he would give you 2 free pumps to replace the one you pulled out- his was on at E85forum.com. Larry (Hotrod) on that site for one has used E85 for several years in his Subie without an issue (as had others). The Walbro guy did say they were seeing a corrosion issue in the lab yet we had not seen it. From my recollection the lab may have been using an "aggressive ethanol" which means a special wet ethanol w/o corrosion inhibitor but I cannot say this was what Walbro used for sure. There may also be a difference in tank types since a poly type tank could act differently than a steel tank in both dielectric corrosion and possible tern coating deposits (tern coatings are not recommended for ethanol according to the old charts i have-- tern was a very cheap coating the automakers commonly used for a long while- but it is unknown to me if it is ever an issue in practice). I wonder if the pump/tank collar you had was tern coated?

Since we do not know what the ethanol supplier was using back in the era you were using it- I just cannot say if today's corrosion inhibitor will eliminate all the issue you saw. If it was 4 years ago it may have been ethanol stored for long periods (ADM for one used to store for long periods if the price was low). Today no one has enough money or tankage to store very long,

For the issues you were having it MIGHT pay to use what you were considering (stabil) as extra insurance. Another consideration would be to go to a different in tank or out of tank pump.

 

[Darth Fiero]

Well the entire reason for this thread is I am considering going back to E85 eventually. Sunoco dropped 94 octane from their pumps here and leaded race gas is getting more and more expensive + it clogs my O2 sensors.

But before I make the switch, I need to upgrade from my current set of 42lb injectors to a set of 60's (because I was maxing out the 42's last time with E85). And before I do all of that, I wanted some more input on the E85's compatibility with stock GM fuel system component materials.

So on that note, what's the verdict on long term E85 use with the popular 60lb injectors and the walbro 255lph pumps bought from fullthrottlespeed.com?

 

[1outlaw]

Why not contact Walbro's engineering and ask them? Keep in mind they will say no, no, no from a legal liability view but try approaching it from a what if, what might i see, how are difference in tank type effects/grounding on the pump, what is different with today's replacement pump, etc, perspective. You could also go to e85forum.com to view the old thread.

 

[onefastgn]

Here's mine in 100% E-85 for 2 years, Just pulled it to install a double pump. It too had a little white haze on the clamp only just the steel part. But everything else looked like normal.

 

[onefastgn]

good reading stuff.http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/e85-technical-forum/313786-fuel-pump-2-years-e-85-a.html

 

[Darth Fiero]

Here's mine in 100% E-85 for 2 years, Just pulled it to install a double pump. It too had a little white haze on the clamp only just the steel part. But everything else looked like normal.

Thanks for posting the pic.

I see the white "haze" on the clamps, but on the upper clamp it also looks like some rust? Is that also some of this white haze I see on the inside of your vent line? Did you try scraping some of this off the clamps to see if any pitting occurred or if this white substance just collected on the surface?

 

[bsdlinux]

A year ago a Walbro rep was wanting used Walbro pumps that had been running E85. His offer at the time was he would give you 2 free pumps to replace the one you pulled out- his was on at E85forum.com. Larry (Hotrod) on that site for one has used E85 for several years in his Subie without an issue (as had others). The Walbro guy did say they were seeing a corrosion issue in the lab yet we had not seen it. From my recollection the lab may have been using an "aggressive ethanol" which means a special wet ethanol w/o corrosion inhibitor but I cannot say this was what Walbro used for sure. There may also be a difference in tank types since a poly type tank could act differently than a steel tank in both dielectric corrosion and possible tern coating deposits (tern coatings are not recommended for ethanol according to the old charts i have-- tern was a very cheap coating the automakers commonly used for a long while- but it is unknown to me if it is ever an issue in practice). I wonder if the pump/tank collar you had was tern coated?

Since we do not know what the ethanol supplier was using back in the era you were using it- I just cannot say if today's corrosion inhibitor will eliminate all the issue you saw. If it was 4 years ago it may have been ethanol stored for long periods (ADM for one used to store for long periods if the price was low). Today no one has enough money or tankage to store very long,

For the issues you were having it MIGHT pay to use what you were considering (stabil) as extra insurance. Another consideration would be to go to a different in tank or out of tank pump.

Good post.

I also remember the Walbro issue. I too was in contact with their engineering department during that testing. It was my understanding the main issue with the corrosion was that in the lab tests they were using ( just like you stated) plastic tanks. Since a plastic tank was used obviously the grounding of the tank components became more critical because of the increased likely-hood of a "ground potential" difference, i.e. causing electrolysis problems. I'm almost sure they traced it back to that.

I've been using e85 in my stock fuel system for over 3 years. The only upgrades were an intake Kirban replacement pump and adjustable regulator both done by the previous owner. I've had the fuel rail off a half of dozen times and I've never seen and issues and the injectors are always clean, etc.

Its time for a fuel filter change but the one I changed 10k miles ago looked great when I cut it open, no issues there.

If your fuel system was not taking care of, there is NO DOUBT the E85 will clean the trash out of it, which is exactly what MOST of the problems have been, not corrosion or eating of fuel components.

Its not the Ethanol itself you need to worry about, but the water. Keeping your tank full or draining it, OR mixing about half 87 in there during long storage will alleviate most of the water issues.