Any suggestions on build?? 85 GN with cooler

[rod2239]

I just tore down my motor due to excessive blow by. I had the motor rebuilt about 2 years ago. TRW pistons, ported heads, intake, comp cam, TE33 turbo, 3200 stall, Walbro Fuel pump, Headers, Spearco Intercooler, 42.5 lb injectors, TPS enhancer, and many other small goodies. After the rebuild, I could never get the car right on Top end or WOT... After sticking it in the garage for a year I started messing with it. I noticed I was losing water and took the heads off. The gasket was blown and I had a cracked head as well. So I did what every average enthusiast would do, I purchased a set of Champion heads and a fully (cut in half) ported intake. Once I did this, I saw an incrediable amount of blow by. I blew the dip stick right out, I even blew the intake adapter elbow right out of the intake (broke the aluminum bracket holding it to the intake) I had tons of oil in the throttle body (which is now repositioned in the intercooler pipe close to the intake), I tried venting the motor better but had no success. After realizing this much blow by had to be coming from internal, and having my compression gauge show 98 psi in 4 cylinders, I realized I had a ring problem. After tearing down the motor is was clear where the rings failed. Now that I have everything apart, I plan on building the bottom end.. any suggestions?? I was planning on turning the crank (maybe cutting it???), new bearings, billet mains, deburr everything,
enlarge the oil passages, was even going to look for longer rods, however, I haven't read or seen anyone do this.. Any suggestions or advise would greatly be appreciated.. Oh, also, I found a 3" DP for us hot air guys.. I'm working with Brian Weaver of Gbody in getting this cloned. He's got the flanges already made so we may have 3" dp coming soon..

Rod

 

[Jerryl]

............ Now that I have everything apart, I plan on building the bottom end.. any suggestions?? I was planning on turning the crank (maybe cutting it???), new bearings, billet mains, deburr everything, enlarge the oil passages, was even going to look for longer rods, however, I haven't read or seen anyone do this.. Any suggestions or advise would greatly be appreciated.............

Rod

Rod,
What is your goal?

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Rod,
What is your goal?

I hope you have a big wallet because you are going to need it! Good luck- Brad

 

[rod2239]

Brad,

My goal is an 11 second 85... Big wallet? I've owned the car since 1986 and have over $ 50,000 in the damn thing... that of course includes the price of the car.. I have a set of different headers i'm putting on along with a 3" dp. I'm also converting over to 87 ecm, coil pack, and ignition modular. What are your thoughts?

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

I know only two people(Boost 231 & Jamie 6X2) who have gotten into the eleven with a hot air. A TA33C turbo will not get you into the elevens. Both who have gotten into the elevens had to custom weld a larger Turbo onto the intake. The $$$ add up fast. Thats why I lowered my boost down from 20 PSI to 16 and richened it up. Take care- Brad

 

[Jerryl]

Brad,

My goal is an 11 second 85... Big wallet? I've owned the car since 1986 and have over $ 50,000 in the damn thing... that of course includes the price of the car.. I have a set of different headers i'm putting on along with a 3" dp. I'm also converting over to 87 ecm, coil pack, and ignition modular. What are your thoughts?

Should not be a problem with an IC and alky.
Your problem will be the turbo and TB, I think.

 

[rod2239]

Brad/Jerry,

What are you experiences with matching up your turbo, to your throttle body, to your intake? I've been reading a lot about this and I'm starting to believe some of the %&&^%&^ I'm reading. Is this important to match up? I basically have three different sizes, 4 if you count the diameter of my spearco intercooler pipes. If i'm not mistaken, it shouldn't matter because of my high flowing heads, as long as I get the air/fuel mixture right.. Also, I relocated my throttle body which is now tapped into the intercooler ( close to the intake) What are your thoughts about this set up?

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Brad/Jerry,

What are you experiences with matching up your turbo, to your throttle body, to your intake? I've been reading a lot about this and I'm starting to believe some of the %&&^%&^ I'm reading. Is this important to match up? I basically have three different sizes, 4 if you count the diameter of my spearco intercooler pipes. If i'm not mistaken, it shouldn't matter because of my high flowing heads, as long as I get the air/fuel mixture right.. Also, I relocated my throttle body which is now tapped into the intercooler ( close to the intake) What are your thoughts about this set up?

I do not have a Spearco kit so my comments will exclude it. I have a Razor kit which is like a chemical intercooler. Porting is very important. My throttlebody, intake and heads are port matched. Intake and exhaust improved 37 % over stock. Another bad spot is the stock passenger side header and the 2 inch turbo elbow. Get rid of these issues and you will have a really free flowing engine. Even with my setup there really is no way I am going into the elevens. The problem is the TA33c is too small. Get a bigger turbo and have it custom modded to your car. Then you will be in the elevens. Also, get a wideband o2 sensor, powerlogger and the new TT chip and program your way the heaven. Makes tuning you A/F ratio and spark advance as easy as one two three. Good luck. Brad

 

[boostmaster]

Brad,

My goal is an 11 second 85... Big wallet? I've owned the car since 1986 and have over $ 50,000 in the damn thing... that of course includes the price of the car.. I have a set of different headers i'm putting on along with a 3" dp. I'm also converting over to 87 ecm, coil pack, and ignition modular. What are your thoughts?

Don't believe the hipe, just because there aren't many 11 second Hot Airs out there doesn't mean that there aren't many 11 second capable Hot Airs out there. Listening to all the bench top racers will get you nowhere. There is a lot of good info on this board, but there's also just as much misinformation floating around just because someone else hasn't done what your trying to do so many answer not from experiance but from speculation or formulation (bench top formulas).

You have the supporting mods right now to get into the 11's the ported heads are the key and the fact that you have an intercooler should make it even easier. All you need to do is get it to the track get your log book out and amke careful notes of what works and what does'nt. In terms of the engine the only thing I could suggest as far as the cranks is concerned is not to turn it if it does'nt need to be turned these cranks are like gold so polish it up and replace the bearings. Also you need to be careful to watch your detonation which is probably why you busted the head/ rings in the first place.

Put her back together get her running right take her to the strip and rock and roll.

 

[rod2239]

Great advice. I wanted to assemble everything and get it right before I had limited or Precision make me a larger turbo. I have Champion heads and they matched my intake, but my throttle body is stock. The Elbow is gone with my new 3" dp. where did you get your power logger?

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Powerlogger-Turbotweak or Full THrottlespeed. Take-Care- Brad

 

[Jerryl]

Brad/Jerry,

What are you experiences with matching up your turbo, to your throttle body, to your intake? I've been reading a lot about this and I'm starting to believe some of the %&&^%&^ I'm reading. Is this important to match up? I basically have three different sizes, 4 if you count the diameter of my spearco intercooler pipes. If i'm not mistaken, it shouldn't matter because of my high flowing heads, as long as I get the air/fuel mixture right.. Also, I relocated my throttle body which is now tapped into the intercooler ( close to the intake) What are your thoughts about this set up?

You want a good "match".
Anything before the turbo is VERY important.
If you are intetested in more details "why", I will try to find a tread on this by Dr. IJames.
Anything post turbo, is not "as important" and I do not believe this will be your "big issue", since the limiting issue will still be the TB and turbo.

Having said that, post turbo porting "clean-up" will help tremendously if you have the supporting mods, but, unported heads have been to 115 -120mph regularly ........ and you "only" need 112 to squeek into the 11's.
There are MANY IC'd cars with bigger turbo's, that never ran 11's.
11's will not fall in your lap, IC or not.

Don't believe the hipe, just because there aren't many 11 second Hot Airs out there doesn't mean that there aren't many 11 second capable Hot Airs out there. Listening to all the bench top racers will get you nowhere. There is a lot of good info on this board, but there's also just as much misinformation floating around just because someone else hasn't done what your trying to do so many answer not from experiance but from speculation or formulation (bench top formulas).

You have the supporting mods right now to get into the 11's the ported heads are the key and the fact that you have an intercooler should make it even easier. All you need to do is get it to the track get your log book out and amke careful notes of what works and what does'nt. In terms of the engine the only thing I could suggest as far as the cranks is concerned is not to turn it if it does'nt need to be turned these cranks are like gold so polish it up and replace the bearings. Also you need to be careful to watch your detonation which is probably why you busted the head/ rings in the first place.

Put her back together get her running right take her to the strip and rock and roll.

X2
IMHO, There are too many "secrets" out there, which adds to the smoke screen advice at times. :redface:

And like you have ALWAYS said;
Still need patience, persistance, a great tune, and the $$$.
So, even if someone with an 11 second car would share ALL the details and secrets of the build, it still does not mean you can run the same numbers.

I still think however that an IC and alky with get him to the 11's goal "quicker" ........ if the patience knowledge, scantool and $$ are available.

 

[boostmaster]

Well spoken and point taken Jerryl.

 

[Jerryl]

Well spoken and point taken Jerryl.

Pete,
You didn't think anyone read your posts did you? :tongue: LOL
Seriously though .......... the thread header states something like:
Suggestions for build 85 with IC.

With that, I was not going to convince the member otherwise.
Usually, when someone talks to enough IC'd car/members, they will be told/advised:
"If you switch or add an IC, you will run 11's"
At that point the HA forums advise diminishes.
Hell, if I had $10 for every time I was told that, I could have owned a IC'd car next to the HA!
But I am too "determined" (Read; "Hard headed") and too dumb and ignorant to do that. (For now ..... :tongue: )

Anyway, point being;
The member is going IC'd, and I am in NO POSITION to convince otherwise.
All I can say is: Good luck!

As far as I know, the "only" 11 second car that shared most of the combo is Turbo6X2. And some the details (the true secrets) are not known.
Not slamming Jamie and Karl. They deserve and worked VERY VERY hard for that the 10 second slip!!
I am not sure if I would either.
Heck, someone could take Jamie's car and NEVER run the same time either! :biggrin:

In this forum however, the typical advice to new members is;
"X2", "Don't know", "Good luck", etc.
Not much lately with "Meat or direction" in it. (Your advice is GREAT and has meat)
To some extend, it really irks me to see this, as I know the struggles and countless hours of research needed for basics. I was there and still am learning.

A good example of combo and sharing is "Grumpy".
He shared most of the details on Melissa's car to run 9.X at like 139.X
Many have tried to get there, but have not yet succeeded.
Again, combo, tuning and some "minor details" that can make ot break the combo.

A few years back I was talking to a good fried of mine.
He plays in a band, with a 72 (?) Gibson Les Paul Gold arch top.
Uses an old Lab 5 series amp, no pedals, modulators or anything.
The "blues/rock sound" is incredible!
So, one day another friend bought the exact same set-up, year and everything. There were no secrets in this combo!
Never got the same sound. Why? Playing style.


Having said all that ……. You my friend, are one of the more knowledgeable members on this board and tell it like it is, no BS, and I appreciate that a lot.
There is very little BS when you line up at the lights.

Sorry to ramble ..........

 

[boostmaster]

Thanks Jerryl, I applaud you also for your contribution to this board. While many members are slowly slipping away you remain a solid foundation of advise and knowledge to this board.

I know at times I may come off as a little brash and sometimes cocky in terms of some of my posts, but I just tell it the only way I know how and that's straight of the cuff. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than a new or junior member on this board coming in here asking for advise and in my opinion get discouraging advise right of the bat. You get the sublimininal message that man I just screwed myself and should have bought an Intercooled car. I would say that I'm sure that's not the intention of most and the advise that is given is geniune, but we have got to get off this mentality that I have'nt done it and look at all the money I have spent so I'm informing you based on my experiance. If I could tell you how many times since I owned my Hot Air I have been laughed at, teased and told to give up on my slow car and get an Intercooled car you'd go crazy. Guess what now those same guys give me respect when I go to the track and I have attained a kind of nick name "Mr. Hot Air". And that is vendication for me. It's that same vindication that I want for everyone in the Hot Air forum.

As I have said before I remember when this board was full of many track tested real racers most of which have moved up to Intercooled or gone all together, but ask anyone of them that are still here and they all would tell you that their Hot Air car is the most challenging and the most rewarding when they hit their goals. I own both Hot and Intercooled cars and I know my Hot Air is more fun.

Hell you think Brent "boost231" been runnin 11's forever? Hell no, as I recall he had been stuck on 13.000xxx for years before his break into the 12's and then the 11's. I myself had been in this same rutt and have followed his progress as well as many others.

So you see it's learning curve for everyone. Though the general combo's and suggestions from everyone is generic the rest is up to the tuner and driver. that is why I always suggest patience, tuning and more patience.

 

[Jerryl]

Thanks Jerryl, I applaud you also for your contribution to this board. While many members are slowly slipping away you remain a solid foundation of advise and knowledge to this board.

I know at times I may come off as a little brash and sometimes cocky in terms of some of my posts, but I just tell it the only way I know how and that's straight of the cuff. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than a new or junior member on this board coming in here asking for advise and in my opinion get discouraging advise right of the bat. You get the sublimininal message that man I just screwed myself and should have bought an Intercooled car. I would say that I'm sure that's not the intention of most and the advise that is given is geniune, but we have got to get off this mentality that I have'nt done it and look at all the money I have spent so I'm informing you based on my experiance. If I could tell you how many times since I owned my Hot Air I have been laughed at, teased and told to give up on my slow car and get an Intercooled car you'd go crazy. Guess what now those same guys give me respect when I go to the track and I have attained a kind of nick name "Mr. Hot Air". And that is vendication for me. It's that same vindication that I want for everyone in the Hot Air forum.

As I have said before I remember when this board was full of many track tested real racers most of which have moved up to Intercooled or gone all together, but ask anyone of them that are still here and they all would tell you that their Hot Air car is the most challenging and the most rewarding when they hit their goals. I own both Hot and Intercooled cars and I know my Hot Air is more fun.

Hell you think Brent "boost231" been runnin 11's forever? Hell no, as I recall he had been stuck on 13.000xxx for years before his break into the 12's and then the 11's. I myself had been in this same rutt and have followed his progress as well as many others.

So you see it's learning curve for everyone. Though the general combo's and suggestions from everyone is generic the rest is up to the tuner and driver. that is why I always suggest patience, tuning and more patience.

This is why I went to the engineered /bench top approach. :tongue:
Let me explain.

I took and combined the work of the VERY smart and capable John Estill and Joe Lubrant .
Worked on his spread sheet for 4 years, combined with hundreds of runs and logs, to determine some of the “user input numbers such as VE, BSFC, etc.
This allowed me to see what is possible with a given tune and combo.
It is very accurate based on countless hours of searching, etc and can give good insight of “what should it run”.
That is what I base most of my “decision making” on. Many call it "Woulda. Shoulda, Coulda" but read on.

Me? I enjoy the challenge (most of the time) in predicting the outcome.
It is what I do. Wether it is 80mph, or 120mph does not matter to me.
The challenge to me, is to predict the outcome and hit the goal.

So, if I run the number at 10PSI that was predicted, is that "Woulda. Shoulda, Coulda"?
Not in my mind since I ran the number.
Now, if I predicted 10 more MPH, than "Yes, Woulda. Shoulda, Coulda"

So, this is more an “educated /calculated” approach, which does NOT mean you can run the number, but more less indicates “what should it run”.
Sure beats throwing $$$ at it.

Example:
A Hot Air with good ported heads, Alky injection, 5200 rpm, 23psi boost, 70 deg ambient, should be able to run 113mph, or around 420WHP
That alone is good to squeak into the 11’s.
Question is; Do you have the supporting mods, and can you tune it to this number?

Again;
Supporting mods, patience, knowledge, scan tool with good data and knowledge to make the right decisions.
It is MUCH easier than before with tools such as PL, WB, EGT's, Closed loop chips etc.

Peace out ..............