One of my buddies has a wrx,ive been checking popular wrx web sites and all the talk of water inj.Theres also a great link on here of advantages of water on octane level.Whats the difference ,and why does alc. seem to be more popular with buicks.Why not use water (free?)
Alcohol or water whats the diff.
- Thread starter Hammer
- Start date
tminer
Not quite normal
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
The non-TR commercial stuff from Carrol, Aquamist, etc, seems to be water oriented. They claim that alky only adds less 5% effectiveness and not worth the cost unless needed to prevent freezing.
There does seem to be some anecdotal evidence that up to 50% methanol will make a significant improvement. Since the aforementioned systems are not methanol freindly, they may well ignore that, or feel that the benefits do not justify the addittional cost to make them methanol freindly. Other forms of alky are less destructive and work to prevent freezing, but do not have the properties to add significantly to overall effectiveness.
Also, in a TR that has maxed out the MAF there needs to be a way to adjust fueling to compensate for the added boost. Alky is fuel so varying the mix is another tuning tool, especially when still using a non-alky chip or an alky chip that just has extra timing but not water optimized fuel tables.
All of this is just from my research. One of these days I am going to do some track testing but I really want a progressive alky controller that tracks injector pulse width and boost in order to maintain a user selectable water/gas ratio and drive the ShureFlow pump.
HTH,
Tom
There does seem to be some anecdotal evidence that up to 50% methanol will make a significant improvement. Since the aforementioned systems are not methanol freindly, they may well ignore that, or feel that the benefits do not justify the addittional cost to make them methanol freindly. Other forms of alky are less destructive and work to prevent freezing, but do not have the properties to add significantly to overall effectiveness.
Also, in a TR that has maxed out the MAF there needs to be a way to adjust fueling to compensate for the added boost. Alky is fuel so varying the mix is another tuning tool, especially when still using a non-alky chip or an alky chip that just has extra timing but not water optimized fuel tables.
All of this is just from my research. One of these days I am going to do some track testing but I really want a progressive alky controller that tracks injector pulse width and boost in order to maintain a user selectable water/gas ratio and drive the ShureFlow pump.
HTH,
Tom
i have a feeling that this is going to get moved into the alky section...
anyways, i tried running a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and water and the motor bogged down big time...one time i tried straight water...car basically died...tried 70/30 mix and still the motor would bog just a tad...i have used basically straight denatured alky now and there is no bog whatsoever at 27 psi of boost...
some guys like a 70/30 mix but it just depends on the car...my car hates the water and screams with straight denatured...
anyways, i tried running a 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol and water and the motor bogged down big time...one time i tried straight water...car basically died...tried 70/30 mix and still the motor would bog just a tad...i have used basically straight denatured alky now and there is no bog whatsoever at 27 psi of boost...
some guys like a 70/30 mix but it just depends on the car...my car hates the water and screams with straight denatured...
I might be wrong with these next comments here so bare with me
From what I have read about alky/water injection, the alky adds a little octane to the mix, but water absorbs the heat in the combustion chamber which in the end cools the charge and takes away detonation, The finer the spray the better the heat absorbtion the cooler the charge, thats why people sware by aquamist nozzles, they spray a much finer mist of water. this is the same reason I did not mount my duel nozzles facing each other, I figuerd it would just cause puddling.
I might be barking up the wrong tree with all of this but it made since when I read about it. As far as why we GN guy's run alky in our car's I think it sound cooler to say I have a ALKY injection kit on my car, than say it's water injected.
From what I have read about alky/water injection, the alky adds a little octane to the mix, but water absorbs the heat in the combustion chamber which in the end cools the charge and takes away detonation, The finer the spray the better the heat absorbtion the cooler the charge, thats why people sware by aquamist nozzles, they spray a much finer mist of water. this is the same reason I did not mount my duel nozzles facing each other, I figuerd it would just cause puddling.
I might be barking up the wrong tree with all of this but it made since when I read about it. As far as why we GN guy's run alky in our car's I think it sound cooler to say I have a ALKY injection kit on my car, than say it's water injected.
Originally posted by Hammer
Thanks for reply guys.
Aqua mist is the one i was thinking of.
Sorry didnt notice alc. section
How do you max out a maf?
Don how do like your setup?Im aiming for something similar(someday)
how do i like it? i can turn up the boost from 15 psi on straight 93 pump gas to 25-27 psi with the alcohol...that's almost a 100 horsepower difference...i would say it's worth the $400 unless you do the kit yourself and then it's way cheaper like $200 or less...best bang for the buck on these cars period...if you street drive your beast mostly alky is for you
tminer
Not quite normal
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Reading d0n_3d's post reminded me of another factor, you're more likely to need a progressive controller, staged nozzles, or higher turnon point with higher water percentages. The finer sprays will certainly help too.
You max out a MAF by flowing more air than it can measure. Pretty easy to do with the boost levels run with alky/water injection or race gas.
Tom
You max out a MAF by flowing more air than it can measure. Pretty easy to do with the boost levels run with alky/water injection or race gas.
Tom
b4black
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I run into this type of situation at work all the time. I wouldn't necessarily draw the same conclusion.
You need to seperately optimize using both water and alcohol, which will mean different delivery rates. The right amount of alcohol looks to be too much for water (hence the bog). But the right amount of water might be just as effective as alcohol. I would suspect that water can absorb more heat than ethanol, so less would be needed. But then ethanol is a fuel. TOO MANY variables are effected when changing the fluid. You need to optimize on both to get the real answer of which is better/best.
And then theres 50/50, 25/70, 70/25. If one of those can perform as well as straight ethanol, then you can save some money and maybe get a flammable liquid out of your car.
