- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
AC Delco Oil Filter Shedding?
- Thread starter t-topflyer
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2003
wow Pauly! Awesome post! Now I know I'll NEVER use an AC Delco filter on any of my GM cars again!! 
:biggrin:
Oil Filters
Broken open, you can see how a counterfeit oil filter (shown on the right) will not protect your vehicle’s engine. This can cause you to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on repairs that were not needed.
Of all the oil filters in the world they picked AC Delco go figure! Forget getting paper in your oil this alone should keep anyone away from AC Delco oil filters! Sorry Eric can't help with your 401K plan.
:biggrin:
Oil Filters
Broken open, you can see how a counterfeit oil filter (shown on the right) will not protect your vehicle’s engine. This can cause you to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on repairs that were not needed.
Of all the oil filters in the world they picked AC Delco go figure!
Forget getting paper in your oil this alone should keep anyone away from AC Delco oil filters! Sorry Eric can't help with your 401K plan. What I'm saying is, I got my last filter from Ferman Chevrolet in Tampa. It is exactly the same as the one I got from Advance Auto Parts.
They have changed. The top part with the threads used to be convex slightly where the threads were and the metal was heavier and thicker. Now they are completely flat on the top and the threads are different. it works, but it is different.
If you are going to post pics, I think the PF1218 is the most dramatic difference. It's the standard chevy small block filter. I found one of the old ones at an Advance store here in Lakeland and I bought it. I won't buy those new ones...
Crap...I've been using the AC filters from AutoZone on my 2005 Silverado since it was new...I have a few at home...I'll cut one open tonight...maybe I got lucky and they aren't the cheap counterfeits...:frown:...luckily I bought
a big stash of the AC Ultraguards before they went discontinued...I use those on my GN and Turbo Regal...
The PF-1218 is the later # for the pf-35 truck filter and they also use to have a shorter version of the SBC filter pf-25 for the car using a sbc.
I used to work @ advance auto for 6 yrs and when i left the ac-delco line of filters and numbers changed.
i'm glad i no longer runa the stock location filter. the turbo savers came with a baldwin filter. I use a hasting filter that i get from my amsoil guy. I was doing some research on the hasting filters and hasting bought out baldwin filters and they are now the same filters.
Engineering Bulletin 98-4
turbofish38
Le Pétomane
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2002
Okay.Here are some pics comparing my fleet PF52 to the aftermarket PF52. I choose the PF52 since I figured to majority of us are using a stock filter size. I would assume the same applies to the PF1218 and PF48 used on an LSX. First there is a size difference. The fleet PF52 is longer. About 10mm.Diameter is the same.The big difference is on the bottom. The drain back valve on the fleet is black in color. Pink on the aftermarket PF52. The holes appear to be the same size. And as far as I can tell both filter medias are paper. The fleet PF52 has Made In USA printed on the end. Just a number on the aftermarket. The box is printed in the USA though. No idea where the filter is made.And the color of blue is different. Fleet PF52 is a darker blue.I also did a bang the filter on the countertop test and I didn't see any loose paper of media dust particles come out of either one.
While everyone is quick to jump on the all AC is junk reguardless of which one you use bandwagon, I might point out that every brand name has a problem with being counterfeited. Where's the pics of the fake Frams,Wix,Baldwins and Mobils? Maybe the reason is that AC/Delco gives a damn about quality control.If the aftermarket is peddling fake filters than you know they are doing it with everything they can make a quick buck at.
And I did notice that nobody even bothered to mention media size? I also sell a PF1218 size filter that has the synthetic media that makes those Mobils look rather puny as far as filtering capablity. You pay the price for it. Overkill IMO.If your going to start a debate about filters than post up some numbers to support why you pick is superior. It's a filter afterall. Not some accessory hanging off your engine.
And why dont I see any type of magnet. Aint it important to see if your bearings are wearing abnormally? It's a waste of time sending in oil samples or cutting filters apart with out one IMO. BTW I dont cut my filters apart. The magnet is just there to keep what metal there is in my oil filter. I also run a magnetic drain plug. No known metal particles hanging on it either. Either my engine isn't wearing from using Mobil1 oil or maybe my cheap AC filter is doing it's job. Maybe I'm just good at screwing motors together. Who cares?
Pic 1-Size comparison. Fleet PF52 on the right.Aftermarket on the left
Pic 2-Labels. Both appear to use the same labels
Pic 3-Fleet PF52. Made In USA
Pic 4-Aftermarket. Just a number
Pic 5-Bottom side.Fleet PF52 on right.Aftermarket on left
While everyone is quick to jump on the all AC is junk reguardless of which one you use bandwagon, I might point out that every brand name has a problem with being counterfeited. Where's the pics of the fake Frams,Wix,Baldwins and Mobils? Maybe the reason is that AC/Delco gives a damn about quality control.If the aftermarket is peddling fake filters than you know they are doing it with everything they can make a quick buck at.
And I did notice that nobody even bothered to mention media size? I also sell a PF1218 size filter that has the synthetic media that makes those Mobils look rather puny as far as filtering capablity. You pay the price for it. Overkill IMO.If your going to start a debate about filters than post up some numbers to support why you pick is superior. It's a filter afterall. Not some accessory hanging off your engine.
And why dont I see any type of magnet. Aint it important to see if your bearings are wearing abnormally? It's a waste of time sending in oil samples or cutting filters apart with out one IMO. BTW I dont cut my filters apart. The magnet is just there to keep what metal there is in my oil filter. I also run a magnetic drain plug. No known metal particles hanging on it either. Either my engine isn't wearing from using Mobil1 oil or maybe my cheap AC filter is doing it's job. Maybe I'm just good at screwing motors together. Who cares?
Pic 1-Size comparison. Fleet PF52 on the right.Aftermarket on the left
Pic 2-Labels. Both appear to use the same labels
Pic 3-Fleet PF52. Made In USA
Pic 4-Aftermarket. Just a number
Pic 5-Bottom side.Fleet PF52 on right.Aftermarket on left
Attachments
Eric
I can't see what good it would be to run a magnet just for bearing materials. I believe that the bearing material is not magnetic. The only thing that would be magnetic is the iron from the block and or crank/cam. The reason i don't care to use the stock location filter is i have my bypass modified and want all my oil filtered on cold start-up. What is the burst pressure on a AC filter along with the max pressure on it before the filter media colapses.
t-topflyer
Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2007
Thanks for the comparson pics. I would like to see some good hard data as well. Maybe Richard Clark could help with this issue. With the extent of research he has done with oil, surely he would have an evidence based opinion about filters as well. I might add that the filter that I took off the car that I changed the rear main seal in resembles the fleet filter; complete with the black drainback filter. It also has Made in the USA stamped on the bottom in black writing and a lot #. Not sure if it is a good counterfeit or what. The one I most recently purchased is just like the aftermarket one. Pink media, and blue lot # on bottom. Both filters were purchased from the same store within 3 mos of each other.
OK...I checked out the AC filters that I had bought from AutoZone and they appear to be the same as the one turbofish38 has pictured from fleet...they have USA stamped on the end...drain back valve is black...inlet part with threads is sort of convex...not flat...paper inside is pleated yellowish paper...plus very sturdy..I tried squeezing the filter and sides wouldn't budge...so I'm assuming these are real ones...I'll continue to use them...I agree with Eric..shouldn't condemn all AC filters as junk because some cheap aftermarket counterfeits are in the market place...just need to be careful what you buy...
here is the e-maul that i got back from hasting in regards to the lf-349 filtert that fits the turbo savers.
Mr. Broughton,
Thank you for your inquiry. The LF349 has a burst pressure rating of 300 psi. The elements structural integrity will endure a pressure differential up to 100 psid (differential pressure). If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us.
Cordially,
TRAVIS R. WINBERG
SUPERVISOR OF SERVICE ENGINEERING
BALDWIN FILTERS
800-822-5394 EXT.79763
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: patrick broughton [mailto:spaze5@northstate.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 9:03 AM
To: Travis Winberg
Subject: lf 349 pressures
hi
I sending a email to you about one of the oil filters that i use in conjunction with ams oil racing 20w50. I currently have my oil pressure bypass spring disabled for the reason to have all my oil filtered @ start-up and @ high rpm use. I'm currently using a LF349 filter that crossed referenced from a baldwin b279. What my question is what is the burst pressure ont he filter and also what is the filter media pressure threshold @.
Thanks for the help
Patrick Broughton
t3intercooled
Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2004
Like stated before it would be nice for some hard data. Now I have used AC Delco filters for years, especially on my GN. I have used both filters that Eric pictured. I change my filters 3 times during a summer and I have never had any material let alone paper material in my oil....just my .02
comments on filters
someone sent me a message and asked my opinion---------quite honestly i havent given this subject much thought or time----------I have a gaggle of TR's and for nearly 20 years i have been using PF-52's and had total confidence in them----------i usually buy them at a discount auto parts store a case at a time--------i have a really nifty industrial filter cutter that removes the end of the filter cleanly in seconds and i have always made it a habit of looking inside the removed filters just for the heck of it---------don't really know what i'm looking for since i never really find much of anything except for an occasional engine where i already know its a basket case---------that said i have probably cut at least a thousand filters apart in the last decade and i havent noticed great differences in the internals of the PF-52's----------perhaps i haven't been looking closely enough at the filter itself-------BUT i'm going to in the next few days---------i have a couple dozen complete engines (removed from wrecks and theft recoveries) in storage with PF-52's on them--------they were checked out for proper operation, oil and filter changed, fuel lines blown out and coolant passages drained----------been doing that for over 15 years so the filters cover a period of at least that long--------i will remove them and cut them open------if i see anything of interest i will post it----------i'll even open up one of my "rare" filters from 1987---------i have several complete long blocks still in the crate that still have the original painted black filters that came on the cars in 1987--------they of course were PF-47's--------unique in that they had two large grooves around them-------i'll see if they are similar to the present units internally---------i have no idea if GM actually manufactures AC filters or if they contract their filter manufacturing outside---------i would not be surprised to find that they put products like this up for bid and its possible that several companies actually have been or are making their filters-------that said i would expect that their bid specifications are detailed enough that no matter who makes their filters they would be the of the same quality--------such procedures are commonplace these days ---------i have not bought many AC filters for the last year since the ATR auction---------at that auction i bought an entire skid of Baldwin filters from their warehouse inventory-------think i have less than 5 cents apiece in them and they seem to be good quality filters................RC
someone sent me a message and asked my opinion---------quite honestly i havent given this subject much thought or time----------I have a gaggle of TR's and for nearly 20 years i have been using PF-52's and had total confidence in them----------i usually buy them at a discount auto parts store a case at a time--------i have a really nifty industrial filter cutter that removes the end of the filter cleanly in seconds and i have always made it a habit of looking inside the removed filters just for the heck of it---------don't really know what i'm looking for since i never really find much of anything except for an occasional engine where i already know its a basket case---------that said i have probably cut at least a thousand filters apart in the last decade and i havent noticed great differences in the internals of the PF-52's----------perhaps i haven't been looking closely enough at the filter itself-------BUT i'm going to in the next few days---------i have a couple dozen complete engines (removed from wrecks and theft recoveries) in storage with PF-52's on them--------they were checked out for proper operation, oil and filter changed, fuel lines blown out and coolant passages drained----------been doing that for over 15 years so the filters cover a period of at least that long--------i will remove them and cut them open------if i see anything of interest i will post it----------i'll even open up one of my "rare" filters from 1987---------i have several complete long blocks still in the crate that still have the original painted black filters that came on the cars in 1987--------they of course were PF-47's--------unique in that they had two large grooves around them-------i'll see if they are similar to the present units internally---------i have no idea if GM actually manufactures AC filters or if they contract their filter manufacturing outside---------i would not be surprised to find that they put products like this up for bid and its possible that several companies actually have been or are making their filters-------that said i would expect that their bid specifications are detailed enough that no matter who makes their filters they would be the of the same quality--------such procedures are commonplace these days ---------i have not bought many AC filters for the last year since the ATR auction---------at that auction i bought an entire skid of Baldwin filters from their warehouse inventory-------think i have less than 5 cents apiece in them and they seem to be good quality filters................RC
DO NOT BLOCK THE BYPASS No filter will hold up on a cold start, with 20/50 oil even the billet filters. The way the stock buick oiling system works is a poor design. Oil from the pump on does not get bypassed by the pressure regualtor spring in the pump until it goes through the filter.
Norbs i believe you are incorrect. The entire reason for the bypass spring is to regulate how much pressure is being sent to the filter to keep from blowing the filter apart.
It would be stupid to have the bypass after the filter.
novaderrik
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2004
actually, having the bypass after the filter would make it work just like your fuel system, where the bypass (pressure regulator) is after the injectors.
at least with it after the filter, all the oil still goes thru the filter, ,which seems like a good design to me. unless the bypass doesn't work and the oil pump is kicking out lots of oil pressure, an oil filter will not explode unless it has a manufacturing defect.
just keep off the gas until the oil gets some heat in it- that's how the Chevy V8 guys do it when they block the bypass on those engines. the only reason they block it off is because GM Powertrain put the bypass BEFORE the filter on those engines back in the 50's for some reason.
I'm sure all of the different manufacturers (there was no GM power train back then) had their reasons for the bypass location. It probably had something to do with the canisters and the strength of the seals that were made back then. Most of those removable elements were not as strong as they are today. Some of them even look like balls of yarn!
After surfing the net some more, I found out that the new AC Delco oil filters are made by Champion Labs now. That is why my new Delco filters from the chevy dealer have the weird flat top and a crazy looking plastic retainer cage inside. The pictures on Champion's website look just like the filters that I get from Ferman Chevy here.
On another oil forum, they say that Wal-Mart Super Tech filters are also AC Delco spec, but I'm not ready to say that's true. I did buy the one I use for my old Buick (I'm not Metric like you turbo guys) which is the equivalent of the old AC PF45. It is exactly like the delco if you look down inside and it has that crazy flat face with the plastic retainer inside. They also say "product of USA" on the end, both the wal-mart and the delco.
Hope this helps, but I guess I'm back on AC Delco now... I'll just keep watching for those counterfeit pieces shown above!
After surfing the net some more, I found out that the new AC Delco oil filters are made by Champion Labs now. That is why my new Delco filters from the chevy dealer have the weird flat top and a crazy looking plastic retainer cage inside. The pictures on Champion's website look just like the filters that I get from Ferman Chevy here.
On another oil forum, they say that Wal-Mart Super Tech filters are also AC Delco spec, but I'm not ready to say that's true. I did buy the one I use for my old Buick (I'm not Metric like you turbo guys) which is the equivalent of the old AC PF45. It is exactly like the delco if you look down inside and it has that crazy flat face with the plastic retainer inside. They also say "product of USA" on the end, both the wal-mart and the delco.
Hope this helps, but I guess I'm back on AC Delco now... I'll just keep watching for those counterfeit pieces shown above!
there's a couple of bypasses, so it's important to know which one is being discussed.
There's the oil filter bypass in the oil pump cover (little black nubbin thing), and the pressure control bypass (spring and piston).
The spring and piston assembly sets the overall pressure. The filter burst pressure needs to be higher than the pressure set by the spring and piston *plus* the differential pressure across the filter. So if you see a cold start pressure of 100 psi, and suppose at cold start there is 50 psi across the filter, then you need a burst pressure of at least 150 psi or boom.
The oil filter bypass sets the differential pressure across the filter (and hoses and engine oil cooler and the oil cooler adapter). The dP (abbreviation for differential pressure) depends on the oil flow rate through the filter, how thick the oil is, how big an oil cooler you have, how big the oil filter is, what kind of oil filter you have (ie paper filter or metal cartridge filter), how big the lines are, and so on.
Blocking the oil filter bypass functional means that when cold, the oil cooler and oil filter have to take the full oil pump flow, and that high flow of thick oil means a high dP. That high dP can deform the oil filter internals (though that Baldwin spec of 100 psid sounds pretty darn stout!), and it will also raise the oil filter inlet pressure, which could lead to a bursting problem.
Leaving the bypass in place reduces both the filter dP and the filter inlet pressure, thus solving both the burst problem and the media crushing problem. Only issue is that unfiltered oil will be fed to the engine on every cold start, and if the filter ever plugs enough to raise the dP when hot (such as when some bearings are going bye-bye, or maybe a blown headgasket dumps a bunch of garbage in the pan), then the engine will get unfiltered oil all the time. My recollection (may be wrong) is that the original PF-47 filter was small enough to cause the bypass to be open at all times, since it has such a high dP even when the engine is warm.
While norbs has apparently had problems with a blocked bypass, mine is blocked and I haven't seen any ill effects yet. I think the key is to reduce the filter dP when cold. As such I recommend:
- big filter (I used to run a PF 1218 I think on my Turbosaver, now I have a System1. If I was buying parts all over again I'd go with a Biggie adapter)
- stock size oil pump gears (lower pump flow than the BBB gears a lot of guys install. If the stock size gears put up enough flow to maintain the desired pressure, all the bigger gears will do is circulate more flow around via the spring and piston bypass)
- thinner oils (I usually run 10W-30 in the summer, trying some 5W-30 right now. Synthetic oil would probably help this out too.)
- not revving the engine until it warms up good (higher rpms = higher oil pump flow. I won't get on it at all until my hot idle pressure drops to 40 psi or less.)
- live somewhere warm (like Texas)
Here's a sketch of the system.
John
There's the oil filter bypass in the oil pump cover (little black nubbin thing), and the pressure control bypass (spring and piston).
The spring and piston assembly sets the overall pressure. The filter burst pressure needs to be higher than the pressure set by the spring and piston *plus* the differential pressure across the filter. So if you see a cold start pressure of 100 psi, and suppose at cold start there is 50 psi across the filter, then you need a burst pressure of at least 150 psi or boom.
The oil filter bypass sets the differential pressure across the filter (and hoses and engine oil cooler and the oil cooler adapter). The dP (abbreviation for differential pressure) depends on the oil flow rate through the filter, how thick the oil is, how big an oil cooler you have, how big the oil filter is, what kind of oil filter you have (ie paper filter or metal cartridge filter), how big the lines are, and so on.
Blocking the oil filter bypass functional means that when cold, the oil cooler and oil filter have to take the full oil pump flow, and that high flow of thick oil means a high dP. That high dP can deform the oil filter internals (though that Baldwin spec of 100 psid sounds pretty darn stout!), and it will also raise the oil filter inlet pressure, which could lead to a bursting problem.
Leaving the bypass in place reduces both the filter dP and the filter inlet pressure, thus solving both the burst problem and the media crushing problem. Only issue is that unfiltered oil will be fed to the engine on every cold start, and if the filter ever plugs enough to raise the dP when hot (such as when some bearings are going bye-bye, or maybe a blown headgasket dumps a bunch of garbage in the pan), then the engine will get unfiltered oil all the time. My recollection (may be wrong) is that the original PF-47 filter was small enough to cause the bypass to be open at all times, since it has such a high dP even when the engine is warm.
While norbs has apparently had problems with a blocked bypass, mine is blocked and I haven't seen any ill effects yet. I think the key is to reduce the filter dP when cold. As such I recommend:
- big filter (I used to run a PF 1218 I think on my Turbosaver, now I have a System1. If I was buying parts all over again I'd go with a Biggie adapter)
- stock size oil pump gears (lower pump flow than the BBB gears a lot of guys install. If the stock size gears put up enough flow to maintain the desired pressure, all the bigger gears will do is circulate more flow around via the spring and piston bypass)
- thinner oils (I usually run 10W-30 in the summer, trying some 5W-30 right now. Synthetic oil would probably help this out too.)
- not revving the engine until it warms up good (higher rpms = higher oil pump flow. I won't get on it at all until my hot idle pressure drops to 40 psi or less.)
- live somewhere warm (like Texas)
Here's a sketch of the system.
John
there's a couple of bypasses, so it's important to know which one is being discussed.
There's the oil filter bypass in the oil pump cover (little black nubbin thing), and the pressure control bypass (spring and piston).
The spring and piston assembly sets the overall pressure. The filter burst pressure needs to be higher than the pressure set by the spring and piston *plus* the differential pressure across the filter. So if you see a cold start pressure of 100 psi, and suppose at cold start there is 50 psi across the filter, then you need a burst pressure of at least 150 psi or boom.
The oil filter bypass sets the differential pressure across the filter (and hoses and engine oil cooler and the oil cooler adapter). The dP (abbreviation for differential pressure) depends on the oil flow rate through the filter, how thick the oil is, how big an oil cooler you have, how big the oil filter is, what kind of oil filter you have (ie paper filter or metal cartridge filter), how big the lines are, and so on.
Blocking the oil filter bypass functional means that when cold, the oil cooler and oil filter have to take the full oil pump flow, and that high flow of thick oil means a high dP. That high dP can deform the oil filter internals (though that Baldwin spec of 100 psid sounds pretty darn stout!), and it will also raise the oil filter inlet pressure, which could lead to a bursting problem.
Leaving the bypass in place reduces both the filter dP and the filter inlet pressure, thus solving both the burst problem and the media crushing problem. Only issue is that unfiltered oil will be fed to the engine on every cold start, and if the filter ever plugs enough to raise the dP when hot (such as when some bearings are going bye-bye, or maybe a blown headgasket dumps a bunch of garbage in the pan), then the engine will get unfiltered oil all the time. My recollection (may be wrong) is that the original PF-47 filter was small enough to cause the bypass to be open at all times, since it has such a high dP even when the engine is warm.
While norbs has apparently had problems with a blocked bypass, mine is blocked and I haven't seen any ill effects yet. I think the key is to reduce the filter dP when cold. As such I recommend:
- big filter (I used to run a PF 1218 I think on my Turbosaver, now I have a System1. If I was buying parts all over again I'd go with a Biggie adapter)
- stock size oil pump gears (lower pump flow than the BBB gears a lot of guys install. If the stock size gears put up enough flow to maintain the desired pressure, all the bigger gears will do is circulate more flow around via the spring and piston bypass)
- thinner oils (I usually run 10W-30 in the summer, trying some 5W-30 right now. Synthetic oil would probably help this out too.)
- not revving the engine until it warms up good (higher rpms = higher oil pump flow. I won't get on it at all until my hot idle pressure drops to 40 psi or less.)
- live somewhere warm (like Texas)
Here's a sketch of the system.
John
thats what i was thinking on how everything worked but just couldn't put it in to a breif understandable words
The reason for oil filter bypass is to keep an adequate oil supply to the bearings when either the filter gets clogged (debris) or when there is not a sufficient filtering media area to allow for adequate flow. The smaller the filter the more often the bypass is open. So the bypass has to be before the filter. The bypass in the oil pump is there to regulate pressure to a preset pressure usually determined by the spring in it, has nothing to do with filter.
Marty
MY Experience....
I didn't know of any poblems with these filters until I changed m oil. I was at Wal-Mart and noticed they carried AC Filters so I grabbed one. Afer only changing the oil and filter and priming the filter with the ecm disconnected, I started the car. After about 20-30 seconds the oil light would not go off! I turned it off, cecked everything and tried again, then I started to get a tapping noise from the engine
I checked everything again and decided to throw the old filter back on. Light went off after a second. It still had a slight tap t I would just run it for a few and then turn t off and let it sit. I took it for a slow dive around the block and it quit makingnoise, rus fine. I speculate the filter was not allowing the oil to circulate and caused some starving to the lifters. I know hardly any oil came out of the filter when I removed it.
The filter is as described by Wlls above with numbers stamped on the bottom and not "Made In USA".
Never again will I buy a filter from Wal-Mart, even for a beater. Get them from a dealer or reputable distributor.
I didn't know of any poblems with these filters until I changed m oil. I was at Wal-Mart and noticed they carried AC Filters so I grabbed one. Afer only changing the oil and filter and priming the filter with the ecm disconnected, I started the car. After about 20-30 seconds the oil light would not go off! I turned it off, cecked everything and tried again, then I started to get a tapping noise from the engine
I checked everything again and decided to throw the old filter back on. Light went off after a second. It still had a slight tap t I would just run it for a few and then turn t off and let it sit. I took it for a slow dive around the block and it quit makingnoise, rus fine. I speculate the filter was not allowing the oil to circulate and caused some starving to the lifters. I know hardly any oil came out of the filter when I removed it.
The filter is as described by Wlls above with numbers stamped on the bottom and not "Made In USA".
Never again will I buy a filter from Wal-Mart, even for a beater. Get them from a dealer or reputable distributor.
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