Engine oil differences

Sal Lubrano

Active Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Other than the rating such as SL and SM what makes all the Dino engine oils different? What makes the Autozone 10-30w different which is a buck and change compared to say Castrol 10-30w which is almost $3. Is it just a brand name so you pay for the label or is there differences in the oil? Does anyone here use the cheaper oil?
 
Difference is in the additives used and quality of the base stock... cheaper / off brand oils use the bare minimum to pass it's given rating.
 
Other than the rating such as SL and SM what makes all the Dino engine oils different? What makes the Autozone 10-30w different which is a buck and change compared to say Castrol 10-30w which is almost $3. Is it just a brand name so you pay for the label or is there differences in the oil? Does anyone here use the cheaper oil?


Although extremely hard to find, SF or older is the best to use. Newer than SF are lacking the proper amount of zinc and phosphers to be flat tappet cam friendly.

Some oils can still be found that have the required amount of zinc and other additives to work with flat tappet cams. Among them would be BradPenn oils(formery Kendall GT), and, believe it or not, WalMart sells an SF grade oil for 1988 and older vehicles.

If you can't find SF grades you'll need to add ZDDP to the modern oils.
 
$3 oil is cheaper than a new engine :biggrin: and get some ZDDPlus as recommended if your not using a roller cam.
 
what are the known facts about

using STP engine oil treatment-does it contain ZDDP? Also, what oil does Wally World have that is SF rated?? Thanx.
 
Thank you for all the replies. I really did not want to start another "which oil to use thread". Or to use ZDDP. I was trying to ask if the cheaper oils such as coastal is the same as the brand names with the same rating. You mentioned different additives and different base stock. What additives would be added to the oil to make it better? Does it give the oil better lubricative qualities? Does it allow you to run the oil longer without it breaking down? Could you explain cheaper base stock. What would make a brand name base oil better than a cheaper one? I am not only asking this question just for the Buick but also for the daily drivers. I know we are only talking about a few dollars for an oil change but it makes me curious how different the cheaper oil is. I see many shops and oil change places don't use the good stuff. Also I would like to know how many miles you run before oil changes in your daily driver. I know some of us use beaters which never get an oil change but lets say it is a good car you are looking to keep for a while. I hear 3000 but it just comes around so fast. I want to go 5000 but I would like some opinions.
 
Oil Quality

Sal Lubrano asked:
Q: Other than the rating such as SL and SM what makes all the Dino engine oils different? What makes the Autozone 10-30w different which is a buck and change compared to say Castrol 10-30w which is almost $3. Is it just a brand name so you pay for the label or is there differences in the oil? Does anyone here use the cheaper oil?

Sal---------you asked a couple of very good questions------questions that few really have a good understanding of------i thought i'd have one of our engineers post a few thoughts on the subject...............RC

Each of the replies to Sal’s question points to factors that determine oil quality, but getting at the data pertaining to a specific oil is very difficult. Oil manufacturers are very proprietary about their formulations and do not make specific information about base-stock makeup, additive package or final performance characteristics easy to find. If you visit their websites, you may be able to find a data sheet for a specific oil.

Sal is looking for justification for spending money on premium oil for his car, which is an extremely valid concern. It is the truth that the quality of an oil is not tied to its price, which he clearly understands. Putting aside big box retailers for a minute the major factors which determine the price of oil are:

1) In general the larger an oil company, the less expensive an oil of any given quality. The major manufacturers have extremely good oil at excellent prices.
There are some small boutique oil companies which sell good oil (that they do not themselves refine) at high prices.

2) The volume of that exact formulation manufactured. Specialty formulations for racing partly cost more because the manufacturing lots are smaller and more expensive to produce.

Are the boutique oils worth the extra money? The answer lies in your requirements, and this is where the SAE and API rating systems enter the picture.

The API oil rating system has saved the average driver billions of dollars over the years wasted on bad oil and ruined engines. It gives the layman an easy way to verify that an oil meets the very minimum specifications for a specific engine. The API testing which any API rated oil must pass to be certified merely ensures that the oil will pass certain standards using average engines as test beds. Of all oils that pass the API tests, there is a huge variation of performance above and beyond merely passing the test. If your requirement is tougher or different than the average motorist, then you have to look past the API tests to pick out the very best oils in any class.

As the years have passed, the API tests have become progressively tougher to pass, so in almost all respects today’s API SM oils are far superior to 1987’s API SF oil. The person who answered Sal and recommended the SF oil from the big-box store is forgetting that oil passing SF specifications can be very poor by today’s standards in important ways like sludge generation and high temperature stability. At the time it was introduced SF was the best there was but it was actually replaced by SG (a superior formulation in every respect) because of severe sludging problems in certain engine designs (ASTM Fuels & Lubricants Handbook pg. 468). The reason it was suggested was probably because of the low ZDDP level in modern API SM relative to that found in most API SF. ZDDP, however, is only one of many important characteristics of an oil.

Referring to Sal’s question, what makes an oil better than another? The API tests certainly do point to the factors that affect an oil’s performance such as High Temperature Breakdown (Flash Point), Volatility (NOACK), cold weather characteristics (W-rating), and film thickness under High Temperature, High Shear (HTHS), as well as others. The very best oils excel in one or more of these characteristics, sometimes by several orders of magnitude better than others that barely pass the API tests. Here are some tips toward selecting the correct oil:

* For a daily driver the requirements would be much less than for a high perf TR running 30 pounds of boost. Therefore it would be reasonable to use less expensive oil in that daily driver.

* For that TR with high boost, it would behoove the owner to look for oil that had the highest HTHS rating possible to keep the oil film under these conditions as thick as possible.

*If you live in a region which gets very cold, your daily driver should get an oil with as high a Viscosity Index (VI) as possible to ensure adequate lubrication until warm.

* If you have an engine with flat-tappets, especially a high-performance engine, you need to pay attention to the ZDDP level of the oil. If you decide to use an oil that has low ZDDP, but is otherwise excellent, then you can augment the ZDDP level with ZDDPlus™.

So the answer to Sal’s question is: If you do not have the time to research, buy the best oil you can afford from a brand you trust. Do not sweat the mineral vs. synthetic question. If a no-name oil is extraordinarily cheap, you know that is exactly what it is. If you have the time, read the ZPlus TechBrief#10 – Oil Base Stocks to educate yourself about the desired properties of oil, then research available formulations and pick the right one.
 
Thank you Richard for taking the time to type all that information for me. I learned a lot from it.

heres some more reading. i have also posted some info on the 76 corp who also owns Kendall. the link is to the 76 oils for some more reading. i'm using their full synthetic 20/50 they make oils with zddp.
also ....wanna stock up on oil....12 quarts of synthetic Kendall GT under $60 on ebay can be found....i pay that much for 5 quarts in Canada...DOH:mad:

Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
Engine Oil - 76 Lubricants - ConocoPhillips Lubricants
 
Since talking about oil. Can somebody update me on the oil filter game? What do you recommend, which is better?
 
Don't forget marketing costs are rather expensive and add to the price of popular oils. :eek:

Not so much the unpopular or unknown ones. ;)

And marketing alone certainly doesn't make one oil better than another. :p
 
Wix oil filters are the best imo

AC/Delco's are junk now :eek:

I know this is off-topic from the original post and apologize for that, but we have had various issues with oil filters on our race cars and some street car. :confused:

We have seen the case burst, the filter media collapse and also the filter clog and not pass oil. Granted, we run higher than normal oil pressures and higher RPM's than street cars, but this is very disturbing when we are trying to protect a Buick engine that can cost up to $25K. :eek:

After talking with a few "experts" and doing other research, the most promising oil filter is one using a stainless mesh that is re-useable. There were a couple vendors at SEMA last week with great new products with lots of back up test data and field results.

For a typical race car, it will flow 4 time the oil than a paper or synthetic filter and will NOT be subject to "tracking" like the regular media composition.

The initial cost can be paid back in less than a year with our typical race car that has an oil/filter change after 20-25 passes.

Over the next couple months we will be evaluating these cleanable oil filters on a few cars - street and race, so we will accumulate hand data.
 
I know this is off-topic from the original post and apologize for that, but we have had various issues with oil filters on our race cars and some street car. :confused:

We have seen the case burst, the filter media collapse and also the filter clog and not pass oil. Granted, we run higher than normal oil pressures and higher RPM's than street cars, but this is very disturbing when we are trying to protect a Buick engine that can cost up to $25K. :eek:

After talking with a few "experts" and doing other research, the most promising oil filter is one using a stainless mesh that is re-useable. There were a couple vendors at SEMA last week with great new products with lots of back up test data and field results.

For a typical race car, it will flow 4 time the oil than a paper or synthetic filter and will NOT be subject to "tracking" like the regular media composition.

The initial cost can be paid back in less than a year with our typical race car that has an oil/filter change after 20-25 passes.

Over the next couple months we will be evaluating these cleanable oil filters on a few cars - street and race, so we will accumulate hand data.

nick--------let me tell you one thing i know for sure about
reuseable filters--------i use a lot of them in industrial applications and they can work very well if designed right but cleaning them is not as simple as the "car guys" try to make it seem-------if you are going to have good luck with them you must use an ultrasonic bath type cleaner------its the only way to really clean them--------there is no point in bragging about 1,3 or even 5 micron filtering if when you use it after cleaning it dumps lots of contamination into the engine------give it a try-----after use clean one as good as you can using conventional techniques------then put it in a ultrasonic cleaner and look at what comes from the pinch points between the wire joints------and thats the stuff that is large enough to see!!!!!!........RC
 
nick---------------if you are going to have good luck with them you must use an ultrasonic bath type cleaner------its the only way to really clean them--------there is no point in bragging about 1,3 or even 5 micron filtering if when you use it after cleaning it dumps lots of contamination into the engine------give it a try-----RC


Thanks for your input Richard. :)

As you know, 5 micron filters are WAY too small for a race application. Wix racing filters are near 60 micron according to their rep, and the stainless in our application is 40 micron.

We look for "catastrophic" failures which show up quickly as we only have a few miles between oil/filter changes. :eek:

I will try the sonic cleaner to see any difference, thanks.
 
I know this is off-topic from the original post and apologize for that, but we have had various issues with oil filters on our race cars and some street car. :confused:

We have seen the case burst, the filter media collapse and also the filter clog and not pass oil. Granted, we run higher than normal oil pressures and higher RPM's than street cars, but this is very disturbing when we are trying to protect a Buick engine that can cost up to $25K. :eek:

After talking with a few "experts" and doing other research, the most promising oil filter is one using a stainless mesh that is re-useable. There were a couple vendors at SEMA last week with great new products with lots of back up test data and field results.

For a typical race car, it will flow 4 time the oil than a paper or synthetic filter and will NOT be subject to "tracking" like the regular media composition.

The initial cost can be paid back in less than a year with our typical race car that has an oil/filter change after 20-25 passes.

Over the next couple months we will be evaluating these cleanable oil filters on a few cars - street and race, so we will accumulate hand data.

I've been evaluating one of these filters for approx 2 years now. I have just pulled apart a 3.8 stroker motor that was running low 9's at 150mph. The motor was spotless with the cleanest oil pan and bearings that looked new that I've ever seen.
 
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