Wide Body O2 advantages?

[FAMLYKAR]

Wide band O2 advantages?

I purchased the do it yourself-wide band O2 kit (DIY-WBO2)
for about $20 based on the advice on this board. Said to be THE best bang for the buck for tuning and therefore horsepower.
(HP is Goooooooood)

What exactly does the wide band do?

How will this help me?

When driving explain what I can do from the drivers seat to tune. Any advantage having other devices like
Scanmaster
Laptop programs?

Thanx,

Todd

 

[325DR]

Well, its actually Wide Band not wide body.


Second, there is a LOT more too it than you think. Do a search on "WB" or "WBO2" or "wide band" and read.

 

[Two Lane]

FAMLY,

After going through all the previous threads in SEARCH, print out the ones that helped, to keep---no one can keep perfect recall of it all---and you'll be building your own reference file for now, & later. (I've got quite a set of 3-hole binders full of info from prior threads from doing this.)

At the bottom of each page is the place to click for the printable version of the thread, which saves paper for you.

Then, after you've done all this, you'll still probably have questions to bring to the board, but you'll have enough of a foundation from your research & reading to better formulate your Qs & understand the answers more completely.

And you'll be on your way to becoming a WB guru real soon!

HTH

 

[Two Lane]

And by all means, get a Scanmaster quickly...Ramchargers is a great place to order one...honest, friendly, fast, & priced right.

HTH

 

[b4black]

Originally posted by FAMLYKAR
I purchased the do it yourself-wide body O2 kit (DIY-WBO2)
for about $20 based on the advice on this board.

$20? Where?

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Famly,
In brief, the wideband will report actual air fuel instead of the guesses made by tuning with the stock o2 sensor. Some way to log this with rpm and use directscan will allow you and your chipmaker to work towards a very good chip for your car. I've managed to log mine and burn my own chips and am getting very close on a good tune shooting for an A/F of around 11.3-11.5:1 so this spring It'll be time to hit the track for final fuel adjustments for max mph and hopefully low et

For what its worth, I have a ramchargers stock o2 sensor thats about 1 yr old and during a good pull through 2nd gear yesterday the stk o2 reading started at 750's and at the top of 2nd it was reading 700. The wideband showed 11.4:1 at the start and at the top of 2nd it showed 11.3:1 so the stock sensor is worthless for tuning unless you try and tune for minimal knock and just use the sensor for a reference at that point.

HTH

 

[FAMLYKAR]

Gee wiz

Why would a guy from Wisconsin use the term "wide body" when "wide band" is correct? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....


Thanks guys for constructive replies, I am finding many posts on WBO2 stuff like you said.

Here is the site for the "Do it yourself-Wide band O2" a.k.a. (DIY-WBO2):

http://www.diy-wb.com/

 

[bruce]

Inna very small nutshell

The stock O2 is EGT and exhaust back pressure sensitive. So you never know if the change was actually better or worse since your readings are effected by the above.

Building the 40 LED display and you can see ALL THE TRANSISTIONAL AFRs. You cna then tune your Accleration Enrichment to something other then well the car feels OK.

$20 covers the WB controller you still need a sensor and display.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by bruce
Inna very small nutshell

The stock O2 is EGT and exhaust back pressure sensitive. So you never know if the change was actually better or worse since your readings are effected by the above.

Building the 40 LED display and you can see ALL THE TRANSISTIONAL AFRs. You cna then tune your Accleration Enrichment to something other then well the car feels OK.

$20 covers the WB controller you still need a sensor and display.

Bruce, is there anyone that will build the display, and controller and sell them as a unit? Or display, controller, and O2 as a unit? I'm really not able to take the time to DIY right now and would rather buy the whole works at a reasonable but fair price.

Oh, and BTW BoostKillsStres I see you're running A/F ratios in the mid 11:1 ranges during a WOT run.
Hopefully, somebody may correct me if I'm way off base here, but it's always been my understanding that the best A/F ratio (most ideal for making power ) was something between 12:1 to 12.5:1? aren't you running a little overly rich?

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Hi TD,
Most all NA applications make best power in the 12-12.5 range but most super/turbo charged usually need to be more on the rich side, I imagine it has to do with the heated air. Most people on tb.com I've talked to like Bruce, Chuck, Cal and such say that right around 11.25-11.75 is a good range to shoot for and it of course depends for each car.

On my lastest short runs, I've just gotten WB logging working with DS, I'm seeing 11.5 through 2nd and at the top of 2nd and knock on the shift of 3.8 so I'm working to get enough fuel in the 4000 range for the shift and a nice even A/F line through a run then I may try going a little leaner and see where any knock starts popping up and take care of those areas with either maf table mods or PE rpm ranges and see where I can get and work for highest boost then eventually off to the the strip to shoot for max mph.

Based on what I've seen so far with my chips I'd be willing to bet most people trying to run as much street boost as they can are probably in the high 10 to low 11:1 A/F range as their using an overly rich condition to try and stop the knock instead of building a chip in the correct A/F range then working to get max boost w/o going too rich and end up loosing power but they just don't know it w/o heading to the dyno.

I consider myself lucky to be able to do my own chips and with the help of you and others on the board and dedication to studying the spreadsheets and such learning what I have over the last couple years.

Once I get a good fuel curve in and find a place for a good 0-100 run I'll post a DS file so people can see the stock and wideband o2 readings together in scope mode and see how strange the stock o2 can look.

Thanks

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TurboDave
Bruce, is there anyone that will build the display, and controller and sell them as a unit? Or display, controller, and O2 as a unit? I'm really not able to take the time to DIY right now and would rather buy the whole works at a reasonable but fair price.

Oh, and BTW BoostKillsStres I see you're running A/F ratios in the mid 11:1 ranges during a WOT run.
Hopefully, somebody may correct me if I'm way off base here, but it's always been my understanding that the best A/F ratio (most ideal for making power ) was something between 12:1 to 12.5:1? aren't you running a little overly rich?

Building one and charging for it violates the agreement.
This is meant to be educational. If you don't have the time or can't take the time, Bailey and others sell commercial ones.

12 to 12.5 and you be buying headgaskets or fishing piston pieces out of the engine at anything other then modest or less boost levels.

ALL the fuel richer then 14.7 is being used for in chamber cooling, the more boost the more cooling, thou it needs to be in the proper ratio. Depending on what I'm doing 11.5 to about 11.9 covers most of what I do.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres

Based on what I've seen so far with my chips I'd be willing to bet most people trying to run as much street boost as they can are probably in the high 10 to low 11:1 A/F range as their using an overly rich condition to try and stop the knock instead of building a chip in the correct A/F range then working to get max boost w/o going too rich and end up loosing power but they just don't know it w/o heading to the dyno.

I consider myself lucky to be able to do my own chips and with the help of you and others on the board and dedication to studying the spreadsheets and such learning what I have over the last couple years.

Once I get a good fuel curve in and find a place for a good 0-100 run I'll post a DS file so people can see the stock and wideband o2 readings together in scope mode and see how strange the stock o2 can look.

Nice reading a post where someone's got a handle on what's going on.
Using what you have now, and building an ecm bench, would allow you to see all the details. Being able to run a DS run on one laptop, edit with a Romulator on another and run the bench allows you to get more done in 45 mins then a season of racing.

PITA to get it all put together, but once ya get it done, you can save so much time and fuel, that you'll wonder why you didn't do it earlier.

Startin to ramble, but congrats are in order.

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Thanks for the kind words bruce, i keep working at it, thanks for all your help in the past.

Whats needed to build and run a complete ecm bench anyway...i would think you'd need a lot of stuff..ecm, complete harness, all sensors or pots to feed sensor resistance, o-scope and probably more signal generators/power supplys.....???

Even with the wideband I don't think I'll ever reach the boost levels you can run on pump gas. I think my next project may be something nuts like taking my V4 and making it a front mount, should be interesting

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres
Hi TD,
Most all NA applications make best power in the 12-12.5 range but most super/turbo charged usually need to be more on the rich side, I imagine it has to do with the heated air. Most people on tb.com I've talked to like Bruce, Chuck, Cal and such say that right around 11.25-11.75 is a good range to shoot for and it of course depends for each car.

On my lastest short runs, I've just gotten WB logging working with DS, I'm seeing 11.5 through 2nd and at the top of 2nd and knock on the shift of 3.8 so I'm working to get enough fuel in the 4000 range for the shift and a nice even A/F line through a run then I may try going a little leaner and see where any knock starts popping up and take care of those areas with either maf table mods or PE rpm ranges and see where I can get and work for highest boost then eventually off to the the strip to shoot for max mph.

Based on what I've seen so far with my chips I'd be willing to bet most people trying to run as much street boost as they can are probably in the high 10 to low 11:1 A/F range as their using an overly rich condition to try and stop the knock instead of building a chip in the correct A/F range then working to get max boost w/o going too rich and end up loosing power but they just don't know it w/o heading to the dyno.

I consider myself lucky to be able to do my own chips and with the help of you and others on the board and dedication to studying the spreadsheets and such learning what I have over the last couple years.

Once I get a good fuel curve in and find a place for a good 0-100 run I'll post a DS file so people can see the stock and wideband o2 readings together in scope mode and see how strange the stock o2 can look.

Thanks

Thanks, I kinda thought that might have been the case. The discussion I was in was a few years ago, and couldn't remember whether we were talking forced induction or N/A applications.

11.5 makes more sense based on what I've had to put into my chips and such over the years. Just no wideband stuff on hand to monitor it

BTW, do tell. How did you get Wideband logging to work on DS???????? Using an unused input on the ECU?

Thanks again.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by bruce
Building one and charging for it violates the agreement.
This is meant to be educational. If you don't have the time or can't take the time, Bailey and others sell commercial ones.

OK, I was hoping somebody may be marketing a kit. I knew Bob had an actual Air/Fuel metering setup that uses a wideband, but that's in the $1,000+ range if memory serves.

12 to 12.5 and you be buying headgaskets or fishing piston pieces out of the engine at anything other then modest or less boost levels.

ALL the fuel richer then 14.7 is being used for in chamber cooling, the more boost the more cooling, thou it needs to be in the proper ratio. Depending on what I'm doing 11.5 to about 11.9 covers most of what I do.

Thanks, I just couldn't remember whether it was 12's or 11's that were most applicable to our operations. I guess what I was thinking of was a discussion several years ago, and it very well may have been a N/A based application.
Anyway, going back through some of my old chip files I can see where I was trying to command A/F ratios down in the low 11's during PE. Of course, not having a way to accurately measure it, it was nothing more than educated guesswork, but I had moderately good luck back in those days

Of course now that I have the Extender and T+ to tune with, I've seen numbers at the track I never dreamed of

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres

Whats needed to build and run a complete ecm bench anyway...i would think you'd need a lot of stuff..ecm, complete harness, all sensors or pots to feed sensor resistance, o-scope and probably more signal generators/power supplys.....???

Even with the wideband I don't think I'll ever reach the boost levels you can run on pump gas. I think my next project may be something nuts like taking my V4 and making it a front mount, should be interesting

An ecm bench can be as simple or as complex as you want.
My first one was nothing more then a 12v power supply a 555 timer for the ref pulses, and a couple variable resistors. And all I used for monitoring it was a DVM.

Over the years, it's gotten kind of out of hand.
I have 20A power supply so I can run P+H injectors on it, a full function ignition simulator, leds to monitor all the outputs. Post and pulses for all the inputs. Switches for all the sensors so I can set trouble codes. A Direct Scan, Lockers, and a dual channel scope to better see what's really going on. Then two old cheapy laptops for running DS, and one for the Romulator.

There are lots of other lil details that add up to running lots of boost. Overdriven water pump, blocked of bypass hose, plenty of ignition. And lots of testing.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TurboDave


BTW, do tell. How did you get Wideband logging to work on DS???????? Using an unused input on the ECU?

Depends on how your running things.
If your running an open loop chip, then just us a couple resistors as a voltage divider, and drop the 0-5v range to 0-1 and use the O2 input.

tapping into an unused A/D channel is really into the heavy lifting stuff like Bailey Eng does. Then you have to patch in some code to read the extra input, and then store it in a RAM location.

Or use a boost sensing cable and feed it into the MAT sensor, if your not using that.

Just what ever you do you have to stay alert with the grounds, so there isn't any feed back thru things.

 

[BoostKillsStres]

Since Bruce let the cat outa the bag I'm probably safe in expounding but I have talked to Mr. Chu and I know he wants to offer more logging like this on DS in the future when he has time. The system isn't perfect as you have to build a conversion table but it sure works.

I am using the Turbolink boost harness so even though I'm not a turbolink full unit customer at least I am a customer(competing DS vendor plug ). At first I was using it to log boost through MAT but you have to build your own lookup table to convert temp to psi and thats not real easy unless you have a regulated air source to feed the map and get all the numbers you want say 15-25psi.

Anyway, I then built the wideband unit and figured if 0-5V can be fed in from the MAP then surely 0-4V can be from the WB. I talked to a couple gurus and we determined I probably wouldn't let the smoke out anywhere and got everything wired in to give it a try. I then made a small adjustable voltage source and fed mock values into the WB/boostharness/MAT line and built a table of voltage to temp which easily gives A/F from a online chart at diy-efi. Basically 60 degrees is 14.7:1 and 83 is 11:1.

WideBand....don't leave home without it

By the way Dave, my current commanded AF on DS is 10.4 but I imagine that number only means something on my car and depends on the inj constant and a LOT of all the other PE stuff and probably the injectors themselves but at least its interesting to know what the ecm is thinking when its adding fuel but thats about all its worth is a reference.

So now by simply unplugging the WB voltage feed into the harness and plugging in my 3 bar map I can switch between logging A/F or boost and see the whole show at 18 f/s which is gold in my book. So thank you Ken, Kent and all the hardwork people at diy-efi and a bit of work myself to bring this morsel of into to the TR community

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by BoostKillsStres
I talked to a couple gurus and we determined I probably wouldn't let the smoke out anywhere and got everything wired in to give it a try. I then made a small adjustable voltage source and fed mock values into the WB/boostharness/MAT line and built a table of voltage to temp which easily gives A/F from a online chart at diy-efi. Basically 60 degrees is 14.7:1 and 83 is 11:1.

WideBand....don't leave home without it

By the way Dave, my current commanded AF on DS is 10.4 but I imagine that number only means something on my car and depends on the inj constant and a LOT of all the other PE stuff and probably the injectors themselves but at least its interesting to know what the ecm is thinking when its adding fuel but thats about all its worth is a reference.

With the effort of doing that you'd have been 1/2 way toward an ecm bench. When I did my boost compensating stuff I had things pretty well roughed out in an hour. Then did a test drive to get a few refernece points and then was able to get into actual tuning.

Yepper

One other point is if you want to move some PE fuel from one table to another, doing it on the bench lets you see if the numbers are the same. By using PW you know where you are.

Did I mention ecm benchs are handy?.

 

[turbodave231]

Mark and Bruce,

Forgive my ignorance, but when you are using the MAT input (stock ECM) to log MAP or WB voltage do you need a chip that ignores MAT? or does MAT have any affect on Pulse width in PE mode?

I'm using a DFI (batch)ecu. Could I use the MAT input to log WB? I just have to zero out the table for MAT. Right?

Dave