Why have E85 when you can have E98!!

[Smokey1226]

The basic theroy is this. TEL has no effect on an alcohol based fuel's octane. But when you mix the two you are diluting the TEL available for the race gas, thus lowering its TEL rating, knock supression qualities etc...

Who in the hell would mix anything with E98

Thank you for your help as well. I for one am all for Straight E98 in all of our motors. But when customers are asking, i really didnt have an answer. But with your help and Ron's i feel pretty confident in my answers now!

As for getting it in.....It could be done as soon as tomorrow! But were waiting on a few more #'s to come through as we want to be a cheap as possible with it. i would like to see $3.99/gal For our E98 but Were not quite sure yet.

 

[MrMNTTA]

Well, ones a 105oct (E85) and the other (E98) is in the 115-116oct range.

You wouldnt expect them to be within cents do you? Compare that to Race gas C12 and c16 are $5/gallon different. So $1.21 really isnt too bad when you think about it!

Think about it this way - E98 should be cheaper than E85 because it doesn't have as much gasoline in it. Octane isn't a measurement of btu content.

The Chicago Board of trade says that E98 is selling at about $2.20 per gallon to the refineries, etc, etc.

CBOT - Ethanol Forward Month Swap Settlement Futures

 

[Smokey1226]

Think about it this way - E98 should be cheaper than E85 because it doesn't have as much gasoline in it. Octane isn't a measurement of btu content.

The Chicago Board of trade says that E98 is selling at about $2.20 per gallon to the refineries, etc, etc.

CBOT - Ethanol Forward Month Swap Settlement Futures

I completely understand, but due to the Refineries not blending E98 on a daily basis, we have to call in and get a load setup to be made.

If you know how business works, anytime you have to stop production on one thing and start something else. That equals money.

 

[MrMNTTA]

I completely understand, but due to the Refineries not blending E98 on a daily basis, we have to call in and get a load setup to be made.

If you know how business works, anytime you have to stop production on one thing and start something else. That equals money.

I'll agree with you......but only to a point. What would you be stopping production of? Ethanol plants sell E98 directly to the refineries or blenders. So, if you can find a way to just simply buy the ethanol from an ethanol producer, you aren't stopping production of anything, but instead, you'd just be a pass through distributor, and double your money. (give or take)


If you can get E98 ethanol for $2.20/gallon, and turn around and sell it for $4.50, it sounds like you've got a niche there if you can get people to buy in to your sales pitch.

Good luck!

 

[Smokey1226]

I'll agree with you......but only to a point. What would you be stopping production of? Ethanol plants sell E98 directly to the refineries or blenders. So, if you can find a way to just simply buy the ethanol from an ethanol producer, you aren't stopping production of anything, but instead, you'd just be a pass through distributor, and double your money. (give or take)


If you can get E98 ethanol for $2.20/gallon, and turn around and sell it for $4.50, it sounds like you've got a niche there if you can get people to buy in to your sales pitch.

Good luck!

Good point, however your forgetting a LOT of things.... Cost of the Tanker, Cost of Diesel to pick up the fuel and bring it back @ 4mpg (4.19/gallon diesel currently), The cost of druming it up, the cost of paying a driver to go get the fuel and bring it back, Insurance for the rig for that move, the cost of the above ground tank. ect ect

Its great to look at it in your point of view but you left out a WHOLEEEEE lotta stuff.

Also- As we own a Gas station, if you seen the beginning cost of gas before it ships out from Texas, to what it costs when they finally deliver the fuel into our tanks. Its crazy!

 

[MrMNTTA]

Good point, however your forgetting a LOT of things.... Cost of the Tanker, Cost of Diesel to pick up the fuel and bring it back @ 4mpg (4.19/gallon diesel currently), The cost of druming it up, the cost of paying a driver to go get the fuel and bring it back, Insurance for the rig for that move, the cost of the above ground tank. ect ect

Its great to look at it in your point of view but you left out a WHOLEEEEE lotta stuff.

Also- As we own a Gas station, if you seen the beginning cost of gas before it ships out from Texas, to what it costs when they finally deliver the fuel into our tanks. Its crazy!

Again, I agree with you, I just don't think those costs add up to $2.30/gallon above and beyond the initial cost IMHO. No harm, no foul. As with anything, you don't do specialty things to NOT make money. I'm with ya there.

 

[Smokey1226]

Again, I agree with you, I just don't think those costs add up to $2.30/gallon above and beyond the initial cost IMHO. No harm, no foul. As with anything, you don't do specialty things to NOT make money. I'm with ya there.

Absolutely. Cant do it for free, but on the other hand im not for screwing people over that love the sport that i do.

As with selling Race Gas for Torco/Sunoco/ and VP i always try to stay lower than anyone else around me. I've got a lot of customers that go WAY out of their way to buy from me ( i even told them it was a dumb idea!) because of going that extra mile to help them out and because of keeping prices as low as possible while still making money off of it.

A lot of guys in these industries try to screw over racers? Why? Parts cost us enough money already why do we need another cost to drive us away from doing what we love to do.

So thats kinda how i look at things when prices come into effect.

 

[bison]

I wish you were in CT. So is the E98 always 98%? E85 is a crap shoot. Could be less than 85% ethanol. Id rather pay extra and know im getting an actual 98% ethanol.

 

[Smokey1226]

I wish you were in CT. So is the E98 always 98%? E85 is a crap shoot. Could be less than 85% ethanol. Id rather pay extra and know im getting an actual 98% ethanol.

Your 100% right about the E85 crap shoot! The nice part about E98 is with only 2% being gas...it'll be really hard to screw up the consistancy. Although im sure it happens, i've seen readings of 96.8 and 97.5 from other Dist across the country but even that isnt too bad. There is a lot that of things that could cause the fuel to be off slightly, from the handleing of the fuel, changeing trucks a couple times, ect ect

Thats why we take pride in using our own tanker, only we touch it, we then transfer it into an above ground tank or Drum it up (in brand new lined drums) right away. Everything is then sealed and ready to go!

It looks like monday morning is the day that ill have a date of when fuel will be in our hands.

 

[bison]

Again, I agree with you, I just don't think those costs add up to $2.30/gallon above and beyond the initial cost IMHO. No harm, no foul. As with anything, you don't do specialty things to NOT make money. I'm with ya there.

I think it adds up to at least that. Keep in mind he's selling 55 gallon drums or smaller amounts. They are a bitch to transport and move around. If you ordered a tanker full of it i bet it would be a lot cheaper but what the hell would you do with it all? What refineries list as a price doesnt mean crap since we are potentially using thousandths of a % of what is being produced since most is going to be blended for E85. I doubt they give 2 $hits about us and our racing programs or whatever. We are a niche market and pay the premium IF we can find the fuel (E98). Your lucky you dont live in CT. We dont even have E85 yet. When your building a high $ race engine that can take advantage of this fuel the added cost of it isnt crap compared to the cost of the entire program. I drive around with 110 octane all the time. The cheapest i pay in CT is $9/gallon. Im not complaining. At least its here and i can get it almost anytime i want. If E98 was available here id be all over it.

 

[bison]

Your 100% right about the E85 crap shoot! The nice part about E98 is with only 2% being gas...it'll be really hard to screw up the consistancy. Although im sure it happens, i've seen readings of 96.8 and 97.5 from other Dist across the country but even that isnt too bad. There is a lot that of things that could cause the fuel to be off slightly, from the handleing of the fuel, changeing trucks a couple times, ect ect

Thats why we take pride in using our own tanker, only we touch it, we then transfer it into an above ground tank or Drum it up (in brand new lined drums) right away. Everything is then sealed and ready to go!

It looks like monday morning is the day that ill have a date of when fuel will be in our hands.

Yeah and i havent even seen an E85 pump ever so far. Just preparing. Handling is a big issue. Same with methanol. Think about the tank fuel tank in the car. If they leave the cover off of the drum or the fuel cell it will change rapidly as it pulls in moisture. Most would never notice but in a serious racing situation when ever hp counts it matters.

 

[Smokey1226]

I think it adds up to at least that. Keep in mind he's selling 55 gallon drums or smaller amounts. They are a bitch to transport and move around. If you ordered a tanker full of it i bet it would be a lot cheaper but what the hell would you do with it all? What refineries list as a price doesnt mean crap since we are potentially using thousandths of a % of what is being produced since most is going to be blended for E85. I doubt they give 2 $hits about us and our racing programs or whatever. We are a niche market and pay the premium IF we can find the fuel (E98). Your lucky you dont live in CT. We dont even have E85 yet. When your building a high $ race engine that can take advantage of this fuel the added cost of it isnt crap compared to the cost of the entire program. I drive around with 110 octane all the time. The cheapest i pay in CT is $9/gallon. Im not complaining. At least its here and i can get it almost anytime i want. If E98 was available here id be all over it.

Its hearing things like that, that make me wish i could ship fuel all across the country! As i sell our 110 for $6 gallon (and carry a full line of every other fuel made to man just about)

And your correct about the tanker situation. IF we ordered in 5k + gallons im sure we could make a pretty good penny on the fuel. But what are we going to do with 5k? I will NEVER let my fuels get old, as we already order fuel to the amount where i know i can last a week or 2 then need to order again.

So we are going to order small to begin with and then slowly work our way up. Ive got a great rep for ONLY having fresh fuel, im not going to risk that!

 

[EyesofThunder]

Where at in SE WI? I am in Rockford, IL. Used to live in SE WI....

 

[Smokey1226]

Where at in SE WI? I am in Rockford, IL. Used to live in SE WI....

Waterford/Burlington/Wind Lake area. We are located right on highway 36.

From Rockford to our door its about an hour and 5 minutes because of the construction on ILL otherwise it would be 45minutes!! I have to travel that way all the time.

 

[bsdlinux]

Guys what is all the talk about E-85 being a crap shoot?? I haven't seen this at all here in Texas. I've logged over 20,000 miles on my car with this stuff be it straight E-85 or a mixture of it with 87 or 93. My BLMs are always where they should be depending on the mixture I'm running..always.

I know when I was talking to Eric with TT he was getting E70-E75 in the winter months but thats to be expected to help with cold starts.

I remember reading that 93 isn't all that accurate either. Even if the E-85 is shifting a few percent in my case it matters not and I would guess in most situations it would have any real implications, unless we are talking about a RACE car running on the edge.

If I had a True race car, it would be converted to run straight Meth and be done with it :biggrin: But I am tossing the idea around that running E-98 in the GN might be a good thing :biggrin: I'll probably have to get it shipped from Houston :frown:

 

[Smokey1226]

Guys what is all the talk about E-85 being a crap shoot?? I haven't seen this at all here in Texas. I've logged over 20,000 miles on my car with this stuff be it straight E-85 or a mixture of it with 87 or 93. My BLMs are always where they should be depending on the mixture I'm running..always.

I know when I was talking to Eric with TT he was getting E70-E75 in the winter months but thats to be expected to help with cold starts.

I remember reading that 93 isn't all that accurate either. Even if the E-85 is shifting a few percent in my case it matters not and I would guess in most situations it would have any real implications, unless we are talking about a RACE car running on the edge.

If I had a True race car, it would be converted to run straight Meth and be done with it :biggrin: But I am tossing the idea around that running E-98 in the GN might be a good thing :biggrin: I'll probably have to get it shipped from Houston :frown:

A couple great points here, again owning a gas station i def know that the 93 sometimes isnt 93. What i mean is, after you become friends with your tanker drivers/Tanker Company ect ect you get to hear some crazy stories. And with being near the milwaukee area....

Lets just say the farther you go into the city the more you play a crap shoot with the quailty of fuel your getting. I've seen motors built for 93 pump gas, end up nukeing because they needed gas stoped at a little dinky place and the fuel wasnt fresh! So with that i will agree.

Also, on the part about Meth.....for the price and the power you get from it its amazing stuff. But with Meth being a huge amount more corrosive than E98, i wouldnt even bother. Unless you had a 2000hp 10.5 car that would be tore down multiple times a year. E98 is a great substitue for racers who like to race on weekends and play on the streets. You wouldnt want to run Meth on the streets!

 

[86SS86LS]

I'm still a little unclear on the benefits of e98 over e85 (aside from the inconsistent mixture in e85)? Members on here are running well over 25 psi without knock on e85. Why would anyone need or want to go from e85 to e98?

 

[Smokey1226]

I'm still a little unclear on the benefits of e98 over e85 (aside from the inconsistent mixture in e85)? Members on here are running well over 25 psi without knock on e85. Why would anyone need or want to go from e85 to e98?

more power can me bad, less chance of any inconsistent mix, the overall cooling effect is going to be greater, and the price really isnt that much off eachother.

I guess it comes down to, how hard your going on your car and how much power you want to make. That 25psi could be on a 61mm turbo. Versus a guy on a 76mm turbo that same 25psi is going to want E98.

 

[EyesofThunder]

Honestly, E85 is still a pump gas, consistency is what the guys at the refinery pump in to make the mix. Not sure how accurate you can make mixes when the volumes are in the hundreds or thousands of gallons.

The other thing it isn't pump gas they mix with, it is very high volatility gas they mix with. They have to try to get the RVP up, so the cars/trucks with E85 will start easily below 50F. I have had the E85 consistency seem pretty close to E85 and still start good at 25F. I watch my BLM's so if they went to E70 or so, I would know in a heartbeat.

So E98 is more closer to pure denatured alky, instead of a messy pump gas quality mix of it.

Look at race gas, consistency is good, controlled, I would bet the E98 is on par with that.

 

[bison]

I'm still a little unclear on the benefits of e98 over e85 (aside from the inconsistent mixture in e85)? Members on here are running well over 25 psi without knock on e85. Why would anyone need or want to go from e85 to e98?

Because it has a higher detonation limit and if the engine is built around that type of fuel it will make a decent amount more power vs. E85. Research octane of 129. That says it right there. 40-45psi on top of 8.5:1 should not be a problem. It would be a problem on E85.