Yeah, that torque steer is a bad actor. Of course, I don't think a front wheel drive car will EVER lift one front tire off the ground on acceleration, as Buicks are know to do. Don't know which is a bigger handicap, front wheel drive, or a solid rear axle. Most of the new FWD cars have the torque steer under control, but I don't think there's much you can do about the axle loading the left rear, and lifting the front wheel. Just basic physics...
what can we do to make our cars handle with like these imports
- Thread starter 87grandnat
- Start date
I have that same set up on my car (Hotchkis & Baer) minus rear disc's. With the tires I have on it (crappy) and the wheels 17x7 in front and 17x8 in the rear. The GN feels a little less stable than the STi. This is from my butt lateral G metor. I think that the GN has a 110% improvement now than with the stock components.
STi - 13.239@101 STOCK
Nick
Originally posted by XLR8
I do know how to make it run in the 1/4 like an import - just pull off 2 plug wires.
STi - 13.239@101 STOCK
Nick
87grandnat
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2003
well, i know them STI's handle like they got glue in the tires so that is definitly saying alot.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Not quite. My WRX will push just like a front driver if you go in too hot.
But back on the subject... I recently had an unusual opportunity. I autocrossed my Buick a few weeks ago. This weekend, I took my WRX, and they used the exact same course.
That's right, same course, same driver, different car.
The Buick: 44.6 seconds.
The WRX: 39.5 seconds.
Pretty telling.
87grandnat
Active Member
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- Oct 14, 2003
do you have any suspension mods to your GN?
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
See large post up towards the top.
Pretty Telling?.
What that on a low speed, narrow course, a smaller car is faster?. For some reason, I'm not too shocked
What shape were the suspensions, and tires in?.
There's still lots of variables, to consider, IMO.
Now take two realitively matched cars, ie give the GN at least some 1990s technology in the shock and tire department at say Willow Grove, or Watkins Glen, and see what happens. <g>
Just a counterpoint.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Originally posted by bruce
Pretty Telling?.
What that on a low speed, narrow course, a smaller car is faster?. For some reason, I'm not too shocked
What shape were the suspensions, and tires in?.
There's still lots of variables, to consider, IMO.
Actually, it was a very balanced course. The top 20 times overall included Corvettes, miatas, a Civic, and a couple of others. The course had a few boxes, a slalom, and a completely straight section almost 1/8 mile long. I hit 80mph in the Buick in that spot, the WRX only made it to 75, and I braked a lot later in the Subaru.
The suspensions on both cars are in very good shape. Tires are new on both cars.
But you're right, there are a lot of variables. However, in that environment, the largest variables are Driver, course, and car. In that order.
If you wanted a scientific test, you'd have to run stock for stock with the same tires. If somebody would like to donate the tires, I'll test it :-D
One place where the G-body can be competitive against "Imports" is in open road racing, which is the road racing equivalent to bracket racing. High speed handling, brute HP and a predictable chassis always triumphs over the ability to go between a few cones at 35 mph. We left three Vipers in our class, in our dust last weekend at the Arnold NE open road race because they couldn't hang with a 18 year old Grand Prix.
You have never seen ego's so deflated when I told them I had run the 29 mile northbound leg of the course only 3 seconds short of 120 mph average, when they could not even average their 115 mph target speed. They thought I was BSing them. People came up to me later that night and said the "Viper guys said they didn't believe your car could run 120 mph average on that road". I guess I'll have to post the video
The closest front drive car (a race prepped 04+stage II SRT-4) was a minute+ back.
If our car was turbobuick powered insted of big block powered it would be faster AND lighter.
You have never seen ego's so deflated when I told them I had run the 29 mile northbound leg of the course only 3 seconds short of 120 mph average, when they could not even average their 115 mph target speed. They thought I was BSing them. People came up to me later that night and said the "Viper guys said they didn't believe your car could run 120 mph average on that road". I guess I'll have to post the video
The closest front drive car (a race prepped 04+stage II SRT-4) was a minute+ back.
If our car was turbobuick powered insted of big block powered it would be faster AND lighter.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Are you the guy with the 502 powered 2+2 I've seen videos of?
most of those fast-R ricers only get .9 on the skidpad AFTER wheels and springs etc... They dont get much better stock than we can(usualy closer to .8 or less)....GNXs can get closer to .95, or so I've read. You do the math...if you lower and get stickier tires front and rear, you should get signifigantly more than .8 on the pad too.
when I say ricer...I mean honda civic, chevy cavilier, etc...not talking about miatas or WRXs which get close to .9 stock.
when I say ricer...I mean honda civic, chevy cavilier, etc...not talking about miatas or WRXs which get close to .9 stock.
mustanghunter7
New Member
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- May 9, 2004
does any body know which cars had the front stablizing bars on them that went from the fender to the rad support that can fit on grand nationals?
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
The Grand Prix was the only car that had those from the factory. It also had the back seat brace the GNX got, and the front lateral brace.
The "braces" on the Oldsmobiles were little more than really stiff wire.
Yeah, that's us.
We are going to do some work on the front suspension this winter, with steel lower control arm bushings and adjustable uppers with truck balljoints. The hope is to use a smaller rear swaybar (we currently use a monster Herb Adams) to free up the rear suspension, but keep the neutral handling at high speed.
Right now, the front suspension is pretty much stock, with 650lb or so front springs and Baer 12" brakes.
From what I've seen, .9 can be done with just firm springs, tires, and some minor bar tuning, *usually*. Over .95 takes some seriously good tires, stiffer springs, and good bar/shock valve tuning. 1.0+ takes racing tires, really stiff suspension, perfect shocks/bars.
And to try and get to 1. on the street is really really difficult since there's just about always dust, dirt, or bumps, on the road. Not to mention trying to keep the oil around the oil pump pickup.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
Stock GN was tested at 0.84 in '87 on the crummy 215mm Goodyears.
A good set of tires will easily put you over .9 with no other changes. Going up from there gets exponentially harder with each step. Stiffer springs and a front end rebuild might get you to 0.95. Massive race tires and a complete redesign of the rear would probably be required to go past 1g.
But tuning for track handling and skidpad performance are two different things. You might put bigger swaybars on it for the track, but that could actually hurt your skidpad performance. The stiffer swaybars will hinder suspension articulation (especially in the back) and you'll start picking up the inside wheel. When that happens, 25% of your contact patch disappears and you spin or push, depending on which wheel you pick up.
A good set of tires will easily put you over .9 with no other changes. Going up from there gets exponentially harder with each step. Stiffer springs and a front end rebuild might get you to 0.95. Massive race tires and a complete redesign of the rear would probably be required to go past 1g.
But tuning for track handling and skidpad performance are two different things. You might put bigger swaybars on it for the track, but that could actually hurt your skidpad performance. The stiffer swaybars will hinder suspension articulation (especially in the back) and you'll start picking up the inside wheel. When that happens, 25% of your contact patch disappears and you spin or push, depending on which wheel you pick up.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
I've done the Pole Position uppers and the truck ball joints. Night and day difference.
What are you using for your rear control arm bushings? Still rubber? I'm trying to find somebody who's put in sphericals to see how much better it gets vs. the extra noise.
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