what can we do to make our cars handle with like these imports

Originally posted by BigBlockOlds
Out of curiousity, how would the car handle if you were to keep the FE3X alignment specs but just not run as much toe out?
Thanks,

As UNGN said, -1.3 degree is a LOT of camber. Some cars like that much (My old Subaru WRX, most front drivers), but if you're running a tall spindle or a tall upper balljoint, somewhere between -0.5* and -1* is about as good as you can get. Unless you're running an adjustable upper arm, I'd be surprised if you can even get -1.3 on both sides.

I haven't run my GN with any toe out. I tend to set the toe at zero, but I don't like things jumping around the highway on me. If you're going to autocross, toe out is the way to go, but I would suggest getting it aligned with zero toe AND the toe out, and having the guy mark your tie rods somehow so you can crawl under the car after the event and put the toe back to zero before you hit the street.

I also agree with UNGN that the 1.5" front sway is probably overkill. Run stiffer springs and keep the stock swaybars, or get the hollow F-body bar (same roll stiffness, less weight). The bigger front will make it push even worse than it already does.
 
The 1.5" front bar may match up well with the big block over the front wheels. The F bodies, and the turbo Buicks, both have less weight in front, and may do better with a smaller bar. But it also depends on rear suspension, tires, etc.
 
Originally posted by Renthorin
I remember an article from the 80's or early 90's where they took a Monte SS and put on a Hotchkiss system. It pulled over .9 g's on the skid pad.

They also added better tires and slightly larger rims.

I ran poly bushings in my 84 cutlass on the front upper and lower control arms and the damn thing was level and very tight (like a tiger).

Might want to consider lowering springs. Nothing radical but bring the center of gravity down a tad.

This might be what you are talking about:

Hot Rod Magazine - Project G-Force 1987 Chevy Monte Carlo:

Part 1: PAW Builds A Hot Street Monte Carlo:
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/45198/

Part 2: Chassis Tuning the Monte Carlo:
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/46959/
 
Originally posted by J Banning
This might be what you are talking about:

Hot Rod Magazine - Project G-Force 1987 Chevy Monte Carlo:

Part 1: PAW Builds A Hot Street Monte Carlo:
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/45198/

Part 2: Chassis Tuning the Monte Carlo:
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/46959/

Found what appears to be the last article in the series, but couldn't add it to my prior post since my "10 minutes" had passed :(

Finale: The Completed Monte Hits the Pavement
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/51158/


I do not know what issues these articles were in.
 
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I do not know what issues these articles were in.
=============

may be sept 96...
 
Thanks for the help.

Found a picture of what the camber looks like on the FE3X concept:

494256_50_full.jpg


It has just a touch of negative camber. ;)
 
This is somewhere between .5 to 1 degree of static negative camber coming down the road at 110 mph. The car is accellerating so it may be even more.

It's pretty noticeable. With a Big Block and an Herb Adams 1.5" rear sway bar, it handles neutral. We're going with taller ball joints and adjustable arms to reduce the static camber.
 
I`m getting to this thread a little late but we`ve put a lot of time into developing suspension for these cars so I figured I`d share a little. Most mods for these cars (G bodys in general) are aimed are stiffening the suspension. That`s mainly because the suspension geometry is pretty poor for a performance handling standpoint. The RC is too low in the front and too high in the rear. The camber curves are backwards (+ in jounce) and so on. The B spindle swap attempts to rectify these 2 by being taller than the stock spindles. This is a good thing! However the steering arms are longer (which slows the steering and makes the already so so ackerman angle worse) and more importantly they`re 5/8" lower than the stock steering arms...which are already 5/8" too low! Bumpsteer city here we come. The result is that you still need stiff springs and big bars to keep travel to a minimum. That`s a bad thing. The tall truck UBJ is a great,easy partial fix. I`ve done that one myself with good results. The problem is that the taper is different than the G spindles and you end up with very little load bearing surface on the UBJ stud. Not good. Reaming the spindle fixes that...but...it allows the stud to drop in far enough that you hardly gain any geometry improvement. :rolleyes: We found a great way around that with Howe`s new PC series modular ball joints. We`ve been going wild with these things. :) Stronger than stock,greasable, adjustable for wear,and rebuildable we assemble them with specific taller than stock studs to change the geometry exactly how we want. Wait,it gets better! Using the tall lower ball joints improves the suspension geometry even more (raises the RC to between 2"-3" *above* the ground and reverses the camber curves so you get significant - gain in jounce) plus it gets rid of 80% of the stock bumpsteer! We finish it off with PPR adj. UCAs in either standard or our own ProLite series. After trying countless alignment setups we`ve settled on -1/2 camber,+4.5 caster and 0 toe for performance street use. With the geometry tweaked the car doesn`t require as much spring rate or front sway bar. My daily driver is running this setup (our StreetComp Stage2 package) with factory F41 springs,stock F-41 frontbar,our chassis bracing package and a 1" rear bar. It rides nice and soft but has great turn in and the overall handling is so much better than stock. Where the tires used to tuck under and squeal away it just grips and goes. What`s more it`s much easier to drive fast. This particular car is a driver,not a hot rod but even without big horsepower I haven`t found a hat backwards,gopher hole muffler import-mobile that could loose it in the twisties. :D They keep looking in the mirror,like "What is that big old car still doing back there?!?!" :cool: Of course if you wanna up the ante to run with the big boys,slightly stiffer springs (Moog 5658/5413 in a GN),a set of QA1 adj. shocks (set at 5/4),Del-a-lum LCA bushings,1LE rear LCA bushings,Edelbrock or Currie rear UCAs and some sticky 17"s will let you run with 3rd/4th Gen F bodys etc. More than that? Last stop. G-5. C-5 Corvette forged aluminum spindles,13"/PBR brakes,7075 T-6 CNC steering arms. Optimized suspension geometry,2" drop,improved ackerman, quicker steering,less weight. Our test car running this package with an LS1 and 6 speed and most of the goodies listed above and our prototype adj. road race 3 link/PHB rear suspension will hang with anything on the road. Compared to our `99 C-5 with some upgrades it`s darn near equal,both will scare you (or at least me!) stupid before you reach the car`s limits. :eek: Sorry about being so long winded but you asked.... ;) Mark
 
Originally posted by Marcus
I`m getting to this thread a little late but we`ve put a lot of time into developing suspension for these cars so I figured I`d share a little. Most mods for these cars (G bodys in general) are aimed are stiffening the suspension. That`s mainly because the suspension geometry is pretty poor for a performance handling standpoint. The RC is too low in the front and too high in the rear. The camber curves are backwards (+ in jounce) and so on. The B spindle swap attempts to rectify these 2 by being taller than the stock spindles. This is a good thing! However the steering arms are longer (which slows the steering and makes the already so so ackerman angle worse) and more importantly they`re 5/8" lower than the stock steering arms...which are already 5/8" too low! Bumpsteer city here we come. The result is that you still need stiff springs and big bars to keep travel to a minimum. That`s a bad thing. The tall truck UBJ is a great,easy partial fix. I`ve done that one myself with good results. The problem is that the taper is different than the G spindles and you end up with very little load bearing surface on the UBJ stud. Not good. Reaming the spindle fixes that...but...it allows the stud to drop in far enough that you hardly gain any geometry improvement. :rolleyes: We found a great way around that with Howe`s new PC series modular ball joints. We`ve been going wild with these things. :) Stronger than stock,greasable, adjustable for wear,and rebuildable we assemble them with specific taller than stock studs to change the geometry exactly how we want. Wait,it gets better! Using the tall lower ball joints improves the suspension geometry even more (raises the RC to between 2"-3" *above* the ground and reverses the camber curves so you get significant - gain in jounce) plus it gets rid of 80% of the stock bumpsteer! We finish it off with PPR adj. UCAs in either standard or our own ProLite series. After trying countless alignment setups we`ve settled on -1/2 camber,+4.5 caster and 0 toe for performance street use. With the geometry tweaked the car doesn`t require as much spring rate or front sway bar. My daily driver is running this setup (our StreetComp Stage2 package) with factory F41 springs,stock F-41 frontbar,our chassis bracing package and a 1" rear bar. It rides nice and soft but has great turn in and the overall handling is so much better than stock. Where the tires used to tuck under and squeal away it just grips and goes. What`s more it`s much easier to drive fast. This particular car is a driver,not a hot rod but even without big horsepower I haven`t found a hat backwards,gopher hole muffler import-mobile that could loose it in the twisties. :D They keep looking in the mirror,like "What is that big old car still doing back there?!?!" :cool: Of course if you wanna up the ante to run with the big boys,slightly stiffer springs (Moog 5658/5413 in a GN),a set of QA1 adj. shocks (set at 5/4),Del-a-lum LCA bushings,1LE rear LCA bushings,Edelbrock or Currie rear UCAs and some sticky 17"s will let you run with 3rd/4th Gen F bodys etc. More than that? Last stop. G-5. C-5 Corvette forged aluminum spindles,13"/PBR brakes,7075 T-6 CNC steering arms. Optimized suspension geometry,2" drop,improved ackerman, quicker steering,less weight. Our test car running this package with an LS1 and 6 speed and most of the goodies listed above and our prototype adj. road race 3 link/PHB rear suspension will hang with anything on the road. Compared to our `99 C-5 with some upgrades it`s darn near equal,both will scare you (or at least me!) stupid before you reach the car`s limits. :eek: Sorry about being so long winded but you asked.... ;) Mark

Thanks for the info Marcus. I'd love to talk to you in person, and from your profile it doesn't look like you are that far away. Our Buick club (MAGNA) is meeting this Saturday at Kirban's Performance. If you can, stop by. I'll either be with my '86 Designers Series T-Type, or my red Durango (have to put my Buick's trans in Friday night - hopefully it'll get done). More info here: http://www.magnabuick.com
 
Thanks very much for the invite! :) I never realized Kirban was so close before. I`ve got a lot going on Sat. but I`ll try and make it for at least an hour or two. If I make it I`ll be sure to wear a company shirt so you can identify me. I love talking suspension tech,even if I don`t make it Sat. feel free to give me a call at the shop anytime 8-5 Mon.-Fri. Oh BTW,our HD lower chassis brace will probably not clear the intercooler/tubing on a GN but I`m certainly open to developing a GN variant. Mark
 
An oldie but a goody that needs to be bought back for some of those asking questions about the cars handling. UNGN, you really did whack some weeds there. lol Good job keeping it under control.
 
My car handles like an import just by putting my cap on backwards and slumping down stupidly in my seat with one arm on top of the wheel and the other fondling the shift lever. :rolleyes:

The hard part is driving stoopidly. ;)

You forgot, you need to add a dozen stickers of parts NOT ANYWHERE ON the car, then a fart can with "APC" somewhere on it, oh and don't forget cutting the coils so you have to go around all the speed bumps. :biggrin:

Sorry just couldn't resist.
 
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