power plate Question

[BEATAV8]

Hey I'm an engineer... I even design engines, big ones with big turbos and lotsa torque. WOO-HOO! who cares?

The factory LC2 intake SUCKS. Sad but true. Geometrically it is no where near optimal regarding air flow distribution. A better performing design would've featured a vertical air inlet coming in straight from the top, with a good 12" straight tube runner. Unfortunately that wouldn't package too well, there's a hood in the way. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to make it fit, and that's what Buick did. They knew the rear cylinders would be lean. Engineers are well payed to know that kinda stuff. Nobody can design and package a perfect engine. You have to make compromises to meet all the goals. WOT performance is NOT numero uno mas importante.

There's a book by a man named John B. Heywood. Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals. I refer to it as "The Bible". Chapter 7 has some real neat stuff about intake manifold design considerations including pulsed flow, pressure variations, flow past throttle plates, fuel dropout, etc... Dry but very informative, I recommend it if you're a dork like me.

In a nut shell...

The power plate helps to correct the inherent geometry flaws. Don't know if it's perfect but it sure helps. Easy to see that just by looking at it.

Yes! The added restriction is there. That's a fact. Trust an engineer.

The numerous success stories reported on this site indicate the extra restriction is outweighed by the improved flow distribution. No need to overcomplicate, it is that simple.

Add 1 more success story to the growing list.
25+ PSI. 27 Degrees of timing. 0 knock. 100 octane. (Stock I/C)

 

[Steve Wood]

Send those injectors on down. I have some neutron deficient plasma that I wanta shoot in there!

You got friends that drive Saturns? Wow! All of mine seem to be driving pick 'em ups out here. I did go look at a Vega Stationwagon today....probably the last Vega that is still a Vega within 500 miles.

Well, I am probably fortunate to have a science degree. But, eyeball engineering is the ability to look at something and determine that it does not work in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. I don't think a degree matters. I would have thought it would be a hinderance actually.

Come on down and help me stuff a BBC in this Vega. I will let you operate the plasma cutter since I am only a poor misguided scientist. I will buy you a real steak and get you treated for that vision problem.

 

[strikeeagle]

Steve,

I love ya man!!!

One of these days I'm going to break down and buy a couple of PPs for my cars. (But I'm damn sure not gonna tell anybody...)

 

[Steve Wood]

I admire consistency!

 

[strikeeagle]

You know, I understand the terms empirical and anecdotal and preponderance, but it never hurts to ask for more, does it???

 

[jdodman]

My vote - get the plate !!!
Absolutely performs as advertised.. Best $55.00
spent beside 10 gallons of race fuel.

As a previous thread stated - There are guys
pulling 9's with them on so I don't think they
are holding anyone back......

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by strikeeagle
You know, I understand the terms empirical and anecdotal and preponderance, but it never hurts to ask for more, does it???

Depends upon which end of S&M one is on, I would think.

 

[abner]

i bought the combo from jason the upper plenum and the plate.
before with the stock i had 3* @ 19psi on 91 octane and after i installed it i had zero KR. And i'm running Neil steawarts custom 91 octane chip.

 

[Hyper]

Any real test done on this yet? egt's?

 

[Steve Wood]

No, only dynos, flow measurements, and performance. Some of us prefer measureable horsepower to real tests, I think.

 

[Hyper]

no real test, just seat of pants test, man that sold me I will order up 500 of them so I can help build someone a 9 sec car. Dyno test, by who? ...yea I know, we still need a real test done with egt's. If it works then it works! I will be glad to see it.

 

[Steve Wood]

Three real dyno tests done by reputable people. Flow test done by Jason, whom I consider reputable whether your guru does, or not. Proven in TSM by times and top speeds, not seat of the pants. Pressure tested for pressure difference above and below the plate by poster above.

There is no longer any question that it does work on stock block/stock intake cars down to the top of the nines. I don't know how many people are running stock blocks into the nines but I suspect I won't need all the fingers on one hand to count them. The only question that can possibly remain today is, "Do power plate equipped cars make more power due to better distribution or some other point that has not yet been identified?"

Let's face it, if the egts are less variable in a Plate equipped car, you would simply call for some other proof. That is okay, not everyone has to take the same path-just don't walk too near to the edge of the earth.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Originally posted by Hyper
no real test, just seat of pants test, man that sold me I will order up 500 of them so I can help build someone a 9 sec car. Dyno test, by who? ...yea I know, we still need a real test done with egt's. If it works then it works! I will be glad to see it.

my stock tta dropped 80* on the EGT with adding the power plate-


has the horse been beaten to death and resurected for another beating????????????

if you dont like the plate then dont buy it ... JESUS!

 

[Hyper]

my stock tta dropped 80* on the EGT with adding the power plate


if you restrict the air then the egt's will drop because you will be running richer than before it, can you test all 6 for egt's, if it helps all 6 then I am sold and I will withdraw my questions about it.

 

[1320n10]

Test it yourself if you are that worried about it.

 

[Hyper]

I run a hemco I dont need it or see why I should buy a restrictor plate, I was just trying to find out why and how it works. If you ask question on here everybody jumps on you for not going along with the know it all's. Then you get these smarta$s answers from people that dont want no one to ask why or how, Just buy it, it works because we say it does. I am done posting on this topic as I am at the point now where all I get is smart remarks. Sorry I went against what most believe and asked a question. I thought that was what the board is for. I have been in the turbo buick ring for a long time, back in 1990 I attended My first GS nationals and it was great. Great people and great racing. Now 12 years later we have a new group of folks that became overnight experts and no one is to go against what they say works!!. I am really getting tired of what the turbo clubs and owners are coming to. You sit back and watch as I do and it is going down hill! I miss the old days and the fun with the turbo buicks, all we have now is a mix of smart as$ folks that wants to jump on everyone on the board. Not all are like this and there a some I really like chatting with. But for the most, it is going bad.
I will leave this tread and not return, Have fun with the plates, dont test them, dont worrie about me asking again about them.
I am sorry to take up your time, And I will leave it at that.

thanks

 

[John Purdom]

No one here is insisting anyone buy this thing. I bought one to try on my new combination. The operative word is "try", just like I've tried many different, and much more expensive combinations/parts in the past. At $60, and with so much positive feedback from PP owners, the risk seems minimal. But for some, risking $60 appears to be out of the question. I have to wonder about the wisdom of owning/modifying one of these cars if $60 seems like too much money to risk. Also, it's curious to see many people happily buying larger throttle bodies, for example, when testing has shown no performance improvement on most cars. I think the reason for that, at least in part, is that everyone sees the obvious logic that if you increase the size of something in the airpath, it eliminates a restriction. (either real or imagined) Make a hole bigger, gotta flow more air, right? (maybe not, actually....)
But right or wrong, everybody can get their arms around the concept.

But you look at this danged Power Plate, well, geez, how could that work? Looks like some kinda danged alien technology with all them triangles and funny shapes. I ain't lookin' to put no crop circle lookin' thang in my intake manifold...

Seriously, to look at it, most of us would have to say they can't understand how it can work. Seems to fly in the face of what we've all learned about an uninterrupted air path, etc. But if I had to fully understand the principals behind everything that is useful in this world, I wouldn't have a television, for starters...

Have you ever looked at the port design of GM's LS1 head? When I first saw it's tall, narrow, pent-roof shape, it was hard to believe that it could be better than the traditional port shapes we've seen for so many years. When the LS1 first came out, many a set of heads were ruined by traditional porting methods applied by those that did not yet understand the theory behind the port design. But, as it turns out, there was a method to GM's madness, and factors that weren't immediately obvious to us such as the way the port swirls the mixture in the chamber/cylinder actually work, even better than my big 'ole hogged out LT4 heads. Whoda thunk it.

This has to be one of the most highly debated issues in the history of this board. And the debate has gotten downright emotional at times. Over a $60 part! The emotion seems to come from the fact that the doubters almost accuse those that have said it worked on their cars of being liars or fools. I sat back quietly for several months and just kept reading the posts, both positive and negative. Even asked a couple of skeptical questions myself. But the positives come from those that have tried it, the negatives come from those that refuse to believe it could work, so have absolutely no experience with it. The positive reports from actual users far outweigh the negatives, so I decided to try it. If that makes me impulsive or unscientific, so be it. But once I get it on the new motor, I'll probably post my experience with it. I certainly don't expect anyone to run out and buy one on my word, but it seems the purpose of this board is to, in large, share our experiences with these cars.

In the end, I think the debate is just getting a bit old hat, and folks just feel like, buy it, don't buy it. The world will continue to rotate on it's axis, either way.

 

[strikeeagle]

Hyper,

It takes a lot of guts to disagree (ask Jesus).

Hang in there, man! This board isn't going to get any better without a little dissention here and there, even if it results in a good stoning.

John,

I agree with what you say, except on a couple of scores.

Whether the PP costs $60 or $600 isn't the point. How it works or doesn't work isn't necessarily the point. The point is that I've read all the information presented and I'm not satisfied. And when I read things like air isn't a fluid and there is no pressure loss across the plate because its open area exceeds that of a throttle body and I must be a so-and-so because Jace is a good guy, it doesn't help matters.

Now, folks can twist the above any way they wish, and they have and will continue to do so. At this juncture, enough folks whose opinions and experiences I value have gotten behind the plate, so I will give it a try and form my own opinions. And chances are, they will be positive.

Even so, at the end of the day, I will still be curious about cylinder to cylinder air flow or EGT or A/F, because that's ME, that's MY litmus test, and such information could lead to an even better product being available to the TR community down the road. That, I believe, no one can argue with...

 

[RareT]

Originally posted by Hyper
I am done posting on this topic as I am at the point now where all I get is smart remarks. Sorry I went against what most believe and asked a question. I thought that was what the board is for.

People like yourself ask questions, you then are given facts by people who have USED the PP, testing results by the people who have INSTALLED it, performance results by people who have RUN with it, and peoples opinions that have BOUGHT it, and you STILL refuse to believe any of it.

So it's settled...you don't think it's a useful item, fine, buy something that YOU believe in....and stop saying something can't work if you dont even have the damn thing installed on your car!

This is the first, and probably the last opinionated based topic I have responded to on this board. I live and work by the phrase: " Dont' say it won't work until after you have tried it".

Ed

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Originally posted by RareT
People like yourself ask questions, you then are given facts by people who have USED the PP, testing results by the people who have INSTALLED it, performance results by people who have RUN with it, and peoples opinions that have BOUGHT it, and you STILL refuse to believe any of it.

So it's settled...you don't think it's a useful item, fine, buy something that YOU believe in....and stop saying something can't work if you dont even have the damn thing installed on your car!

Ed

straight to the point, got to love it!!!

very well said Ed-