BoostedBug
Contents Under Pressure
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2002
LMAO....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
power plate Question
- Thread starter pwhite
- Start date
That was brilliant. Thank you for proving all this research wrong, now that you've debunked the myths regarding airflow and frontal area, drag racers everywhere are going to be going faster. We are all now dumber just from reading that. I see why Jason isn't responding more often to this post, its been explained 6 ways from sunday and you guys still don't get it.
BTW, a little quick math shows that if you total up the flow capabilities of all the header primaries it would exceed the flow capability of a 3 inch pipe, hence the reasoning behind the 3.5 inch pipe. I'm done posting to this thread, its wasting valuable bandwidth and isn't going anywhere. The results are proven, tests are conclusive, but you don't believe it, so don't buy one. Its not like any of us wants our competition to be faster. Good luck to all of you, see ya!
BTW, a little quick math shows that if you total up the flow capabilities of all the header primaries it would exceed the flow capability of a 3 inch pipe, hence the reasoning behind the 3.5 inch pipe. I'm done posting to this thread, its wasting valuable bandwidth and isn't going anywhere. The results are proven, tests are conclusive, but you don't believe it, so don't buy one. Its not like any of us wants our competition to be faster. Good luck to all of you, see ya!
"BTW, a little quick math shows that if you total up the flow capabilities of all the header primaries it would exceed the flow capability of a 3 inch pipe, hence the reasoning behind the 3.5 inch pipe"
but the clyinders only exhaust 1 at a time, so you could just use the 1 5/8 tubes? NO You stated the fact that the air will go by the front cylinders under full throttle even though there are 20 to 25 psi pushing it in the cylinder that the valve is open on. Air is very light and it takes the path of least resistance. Unless it is compressed and pushed under boost.
I will end it here, I hope it works for you and I hope it helps you, But I will have to wait for some real test to prove it. EGT's and all cylinders!
No I am not going to do the test because I dont believe it works and it would not be fair for me to go into it thinkg that way. We need a outsider that has no opinion of the plate.
until then I will prestage but I will wait until the final test are done.
but the clyinders only exhaust 1 at a time, so you could just use the 1 5/8 tubes? NO You stated the fact that the air will go by the front cylinders under full throttle even though there are 20 to 25 psi pushing it in the cylinder that the valve is open on. Air is very light and it takes the path of least resistance. Unless it is compressed and pushed under boost.
I will end it here, I hope it works for you and I hope it helps you, But I will have to wait for some real test to prove it. EGT's and all cylinders!
No I am not going to do the test because I dont believe it works and it would not be fair for me to go into it thinkg that way. We need a outsider that has no opinion of the plate.
until then I will prestage but I will wait until the final test are done.
BoostedBug
Contents Under Pressure
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2002
C YA!
Jason,
i will be the first to voulinteer my car to test your 6 bung egt idea.
Engine will be done by spring and the egt bungs are in the headers.
IT is an offcenter stage 2 274 cube gn1 headed car with a precision upper and power plate combo i bought from you.
Let me know.
i will be the first to voulinteer my car to test your 6 bung egt idea.
Engine will be done by spring and the egt bungs are in the headers.
IT is an offcenter stage 2 274 cube gn1 headed car with a precision upper and power plate combo i bought from you.
Let me know.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Well, Strike, I see eyeball engineering is alive and flourishing in the new millenium!
What I fail to understand after seven pages of this is how the fact that the fastest stock block cars in the country went faster after installation of the Plate can be consistently ignored. Yet we get unnamed gurus who explain that it might work on slow cars. Louie, you and Walt, need to move up to something quick.
I can understand how dyno tests can be ignored. After all, if someone personally did not see it, or their favorite guru did not conduct it, it has to be bogus.
The fact that guys like Nick Micale have tested it, dyno'd it, raced it, etc. can be ignored because no one has made little plastic statues of them for the dashboard, I guess.
I am sure some of you eyeball experts are going to save some company a lot of R&D money as you can just look at their products and determine if they have a winner.
Ah, Jason, you could have saved all those months of testing!
After we have the six bung egt, then someone will explain how that means nothing because one end of the engine gets cooler air than the other from the fan, but, if someone will just conduct an inductive plasma infusion analysis, that would surely prove that it does not work.
Being the simple type, I tend to go with what works. Enuf extremely credible people have demonstrated the performance on the track for me so I don't see any need to wait for anything else. Actually, I did not wait, I bought and installed three of them when they came out and am satisfied they work as advertised.
Maybe I should add some round holes and see if eyeballing is better than R&D.
Entertaining thread.
What I fail to understand after seven pages of this is how the fact that the fastest stock block cars in the country went faster after installation of the Plate can be consistently ignored. Yet we get unnamed gurus who explain that it might work on slow cars. Louie, you and Walt, need to move up to something quick.
I can understand how dyno tests can be ignored. After all, if someone personally did not see it, or their favorite guru did not conduct it, it has to be bogus.
The fact that guys like Nick Micale have tested it, dyno'd it, raced it, etc. can be ignored because no one has made little plastic statues of them for the dashboard, I guess.
I am sure some of you eyeball experts are going to save some company a lot of R&D money as you can just look at their products and determine if they have a winner.
Ah, Jason, you could have saved all those months of testing!
After we have the six bung egt, then someone will explain how that means nothing because one end of the engine gets cooler air than the other from the fan, but, if someone will just conduct an inductive plasma infusion analysis, that would surely prove that it does not work.
Being the simple type, I tend to go with what works. Enuf extremely credible people have demonstrated the performance on the track for me so I don't see any need to wait for anything else. Actually, I did not wait, I bought and installed three of them when they came out and am satisfied they work as advertised.
Maybe I should add some round holes and see if eyeballing is better than R&D.
Entertaining thread.
TurboBuickSix
Active Member
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
My last post on this too..
I'd like to see it with the stock plenum and matching plate.This would represent the most common setup and would eliminate the chance that the aftermarket plenum is helping the situation if there is one.I kind of agree and have all along that a box pressurized to 20 psi is going to have 20 psi anywhere within the box.If your filling a tire and watching the pressure gauge at the same time, is there anywhere on the inside of the tire where the pressure is that varies in pressure? Is there more pressure on the bottom of the tire where the weight is? Or is the pressure lower at the top of the tire? Hyper said something that made me think,even if he's not a good speller,he is right,if the motor was using ALL of the air charge coming from the turbo, it would not be able to accumulate boost.Another thing that I keep wondering is before the PP came along what were the guys going real fast using huge turbos and 30+ psi doing to stop it?It makes sense to me that if this condition does exist it would HAVE TO get worse as you modified the motor to flow more air right?Well then how the hell did these motors get such a good rep for holding together with stock blocks pushing so much air/HP/MPH?? I am no scientist and have not conducted any tests,there is probably some phenomenon I can't comprehend, but if it is proven to work I will order one while I'm eating my plate of crow. Come to think of it I'll try one anyways and try to see a difference for myself.I wish a real,bonified, airflow EXPERT or a real scientist that does work in this field could give some input here.
I'd like to see it with the stock plenum and matching plate.This would represent the most common setup and would eliminate the chance that the aftermarket plenum is helping the situation if there is one.I kind of agree and have all along that a box pressurized to 20 psi is going to have 20 psi anywhere within the box.If your filling a tire and watching the pressure gauge at the same time, is there anywhere on the inside of the tire where the pressure is that varies in pressure? Is there more pressure on the bottom of the tire where the weight is? Or is the pressure lower at the top of the tire? Hyper said something that made me think,even if he's not a good speller,he is right,if the motor was using ALL of the air charge coming from the turbo, it would not be able to accumulate boost.Another thing that I keep wondering is before the PP came along what were the guys going real fast using huge turbos and 30+ psi doing to stop it?It makes sense to me that if this condition does exist it would HAVE TO get worse as you modified the motor to flow more air right?Well then how the hell did these motors get such a good rep for holding together with stock blocks pushing so much air/HP/MPH??
I am no scientist and have not conducted any tests,there is probably some phenomenon I can't comprehend, but if it is proven to work I will order one while I'm eating my plate of crow. Come to think of it I'll try one anyways and try to see a difference for myself.I wish a real,bonified, airflow EXPERT or a real scientist that does work in this field could give some input here.That's a good idea. If I put three of em on my car will it make the car 3x as fast as if I put one? I keep two spare stock turbos in the trunk but still can't manage to move more air...hmmmm.
I'm still trying to determine if the plate I received in a trade is a real RJC Plate. I emailed Jason, but haven't heard back yet. It's apparantly made of aluminum, has no markings on it. Machining was done quite well and edges are sanded a bit.
turbo buicks
ESADAH!!!
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2002
some of the guys going real fast have those Hogan manifolds or one of those 90* ones where the air goes straight down into the intake, maybe they have better distribution. maybe with a power plate they are able to run faster on less boost due to better cylinder filling. who knows.
Originally posted by WakkoSS
I'm still trying to determine if the plate I received in a trade is a real RJC Plate. I emailed Jason, but haven't heard back yet. It's apparantly made of aluminum, has no markings on it. Machining was done quite well and edges are sanded a bit.
Mine is the same. No markings on it. Unlike the ones I've recently seen, which are engraved -RJC Racing.
I bought mine the beginning of last year and I still haven't installed it yet! Soon though. It could be that the earlier versions were left unmarked, and he started doing this only after copies began popping up? Not very important to me, but maybe Jason can chime in here.
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Yeah, I want some of that "inductive plasma infusion analysis", too!!!
The masses held that the world was flat. But as matters unfolded, they were wrong.
I never said the thing didn't work. I never said folks didn't perceive or realize improvements to their cars' performance. I never said Jason wasn't a good guy. Do the damn test. Maybe the PP is perfect. Maybe it sucks. Maybe it's pretty good, but could be made even better. Then Jason can entertain selling Son of PP to everyone who purchased the original, and double his money. And I hope he does.
I don't see what the big deal is. People want injectors flowed, heads flowed, manifolds flowed. But because the damn PP costs $50, it's OK to test it with a leaf blower? Fine. One question - at $50 times God know how many plates, can a test be in our future?
There are some bright people on this board, but on this issue, you're all talking from emotion. You guys missed your calling -you'd have been great at the Salem witch trials. So which is it, a nose or a carrot?
The masses held that the world was flat. But as matters unfolded, they were wrong.
I never said the thing didn't work. I never said folks didn't perceive or realize improvements to their cars' performance. I never said Jason wasn't a good guy. Do the damn test. Maybe the PP is perfect. Maybe it sucks. Maybe it's pretty good, but could be made even better. Then Jason can entertain selling Son of PP to everyone who purchased the original, and double his money. And I hope he does.
I don't see what the big deal is. People want injectors flowed, heads flowed, manifolds flowed. But because the damn PP costs $50, it's OK to test it with a leaf blower? Fine. One question - at $50 times God know how many plates, can a test be in our future?
There are some bright people on this board, but on this issue, you're all talking from emotion. You guys missed your calling -you'd have been great at the Salem witch trials. So which is it, a nose or a carrot?
John Purdom
BLACK SABBATH
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2002
As far as the path of the air thru the plenum and into the runners, air, like any fluid, will take the path of least resistance. So it makes sense that it doesn't want to make any turns untill it hits the back of the plenum, which would naturally feed the rear cyls more air flow. But ya know, it would probably take a fluid dynamics engineer and extensive/expensive testing to demonstrate exactly how the plate is working. I talked with Jason yesterday, and he admitted that he can't fully explain why it works, just that his tests have revealed that it does.
Jason has documented that there have been independent dyno tests, and the results have been favorable. Many people on this board with et's from the 12's to the 9's have reported favorable results, some as specific as better readings on #5 & 6 plugs, an increase of hp and /or torque, and a measurable reduction in et.
I had my reservations as well. If you look at the plate it is easy to assume it's a restriction, causes turbulence, etc. But I also realize that I am not a fluid dynamics engineer, and consequently may never understand how this thing may work. You can't tell me that as hot rodders, we don't experiment. Like many things in life, we take in all the information we can gather, and we make a descision to try something. (or not) In the end, you try to make the most educated judgement you can, but few things in the world of hot rodding are presented to us accompanied by reams of independent research data. How many different cam profiles are available to us...and which one is the definitive, absolute best one for a given application? Pose that question to the board, and see how many opinions you get. After a lifetime of hot rodding, I can tell you there are a number of camshafts, carbs, heads, and other parts in my garage that bear witness to my search for the ultimate setup on a number of engines/cars. And I know that collection is nothing compared to what you would find in the back of a bonified race team's shop.
As far as the leaf blower demonstration, it was an attempt at a simple demonstration of how the thing can redirect airflow. I don't think that anyone should or would buy the plate based on that demonstration alone. The great thing about this board is that we all share information about our experience in the real world. Some very fast guys on this board have reported that the plate seems to work as advertised, and have given very tangible evidence of why, such as the plug readings mentioned above. For me, that, along w/a long conversation w/Jason concerning his development work and testing was enough to enfluence me to try it. I ordered the plate w/a Precision plenum yesterday.
I've never known a racer that didn't enjoy "bench racing", and exploring theory. That is often where new ideas and innovations are born. And this forum is a great place to do that. I'm afraid that sometimes all of the theory we kick around here gets taken for gospel, and off we go...
So, for the people that are waiting for more dyno tests and egt readings, maybe you should consider doing them yourself, or quietly waiting for someone else to do them. Choose to believe or disbelieve the results of real world tests, dyno tests, or what your spiritual adviser may tell you. But until you show me your degree in fluid dynamics and your empirical testing data, yours is but one more opinion. And we all know what opinions are like..
Jason has documented that there have been independent dyno tests, and the results have been favorable. Many people on this board with et's from the 12's to the 9's have reported favorable results, some as specific as better readings on #5 & 6 plugs, an increase of hp and /or torque, and a measurable reduction in et.
I had my reservations as well. If you look at the plate it is easy to assume it's a restriction, causes turbulence, etc. But I also realize that I am not a fluid dynamics engineer, and consequently may never understand how this thing may work. You can't tell me that as hot rodders, we don't experiment. Like many things in life, we take in all the information we can gather, and we make a descision to try something. (or not) In the end, you try to make the most educated judgement you can, but few things in the world of hot rodding are presented to us accompanied by reams of independent research data. How many different cam profiles are available to us...and which one is the definitive, absolute best one for a given application? Pose that question to the board, and see how many opinions you get. After a lifetime of hot rodding, I can tell you there are a number of camshafts, carbs, heads, and other parts in my garage that bear witness to my search for the ultimate setup on a number of engines/cars. And I know that collection is nothing compared to what you would find in the back of a bonified race team's shop.
As far as the leaf blower demonstration, it was an attempt at a simple demonstration of how the thing can redirect airflow. I don't think that anyone should or would buy the plate based on that demonstration alone. The great thing about this board is that we all share information about our experience in the real world. Some very fast guys on this board have reported that the plate seems to work as advertised, and have given very tangible evidence of why, such as the plug readings mentioned above. For me, that, along w/a long conversation w/Jason concerning his development work and testing was enough to enfluence me to try it. I ordered the plate w/a Precision plenum yesterday.
I've never known a racer that didn't enjoy "bench racing", and exploring theory. That is often where new ideas and innovations are born. And this forum is a great place to do that. I'm afraid that sometimes all of the theory we kick around here gets taken for gospel, and off we go...
So, for the people that are waiting for more dyno tests and egt readings, maybe you should consider doing them yourself, or quietly waiting for someone else to do them. Choose to believe or disbelieve the results of real world tests, dyno tests, or what your spiritual adviser may tell you. But until you show me your degree in fluid dynamics and your empirical testing data, yours is but one more opinion. And we all know what opinions are like..
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Ian, we had 7 cars to choose from with the three plates that were purchased.
Therefore, none had more than one plate and none ended up in the trunk.
Strike, you are absolutely correct. Many thought the earth was flat but someone came up with a power plate and proved them wrong.
The results are quite simple with regard to the Plate.
It has been installed and compared to plate/no plate in back to back runs and shown to improve performance numerous times over in front of independent onlookers including Nick's test on the GSCA car at the Nats....Lot's of people standing around watching the installation and runs on that one. Plate is a bit thin to hide nitrous in, I think.
It has been dyno'd by at least three different groups of people and proven to improve performance.
It is used by some of the fastest stock block cars in the country and shown to improve consistency and speed. It is very important to note that Stock Block/Stock Intake is the key here. It does not matter what happens on a low nine second stage car, etc. How many people run the times of the TSM top guys consistently and go home with head gaskets and blocks intact? Not too many, or TSM would be a lot more crowded.
Those that look at it and say it cannot work are ignoring reality and are in the flat earth category.
The fact that it works has been proven multiple times. The only argument that may remain is why/how it works.
Jason has published his tests and his theories. Dynos, flow measurements, and real world results have substantiated his claims.
Those that claimed that boost improvements (more can be run) is due to restriction in the plate have been disproven as noted in one of the prior posts in this thread where pressure was measured above and below the plate.
Jason spent a long time perfecting the idea and made much more definitive measurements that simply sticking his hand under a "weedeater"
Those, that have the ability to look at such a complex matter as airflow thru a tb, plenum, intake, and heads and say it does not work, Should be able to quickly prove their point.
I fail to understand why Jason has to prove anything further about his product in the face of demonstrated success by independent individuals who use the product, not sell it.
Perhaps the person that can prove that it does not redirect air flow as advertised will also demonstrate why it really works? Until then, it is just eyeball engineering to claim it cannot work. Wait, I don't want to insult any real engineers so let's call it eyeball pseudo-engineering.
I await definitive disproof.
Therefore, none had more than one plate and none ended up in the trunk.
Strike, you are absolutely correct. Many thought the earth was flat but someone came up with a power plate and proved them wrong.
The results are quite simple with regard to the Plate.
It has been installed and compared to plate/no plate in back to back runs and shown to improve performance numerous times over in front of independent onlookers including Nick's test on the GSCA car at the Nats....Lot's of people standing around watching the installation and runs on that one. Plate is a bit thin to hide nitrous in, I think.
It has been dyno'd by at least three different groups of people and proven to improve performance.
It is used by some of the fastest stock block cars in the country and shown to improve consistency and speed. It is very important to note that Stock Block/Stock Intake is the key here. It does not matter what happens on a low nine second stage car, etc. How many people run the times of the TSM top guys consistently and go home with head gaskets and blocks intact? Not too many, or TSM would be a lot more crowded.
Those that look at it and say it cannot work are ignoring reality and are in the flat earth category.
The fact that it works has been proven multiple times. The only argument that may remain is why/how it works.
Jason has published his tests and his theories. Dynos, flow measurements, and real world results have substantiated his claims.
Those that claimed that boost improvements (more can be run) is due to restriction in the plate have been disproven as noted in one of the prior posts in this thread where pressure was measured above and below the plate.
Jason spent a long time perfecting the idea and made much more definitive measurements that simply sticking his hand under a "weedeater
"Those, that have the ability to look at such a complex matter as airflow thru a tb, plenum, intake, and heads and say it does not work, Should be able to quickly prove their point.
I fail to understand why Jason has to prove anything further about his product in the face of demonstrated success by independent individuals who use the product, not sell it.
Perhaps the person that can prove that it does not redirect air flow as advertised will also demonstrate why it really works? Until then, it is just eyeball engineering to claim it cannot work. Wait, I don't want to insult any real engineers so let's call it eyeball pseudo-engineering.
I await definitive disproof.
Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Darn, John, I could have saved myself a lot of typing if I had waited for your post! You said it far better than I did.
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Hey Steve,
I've got 6 injectors for ya. I don't know what they flow but my car ran pretty good with them. At least I think it did - a buddy (who drives a Saturn) said it felt pretty fast. And the plugs looked OK, to me anyway. Want 'em?
Peace!!!
I've got 6 injectors for ya. I don't know what they flow but my car ran pretty good with them. At least I think it did - a buddy (who drives a Saturn) said it felt pretty fast. And the plugs looked OK, to me anyway. Want 'em?
Peace!!!
John Purdom
BLACK SABBATH
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2002
Originally posted by Steve Wood
Darn, John, I could have saved myself a lot of typing if I had waited for your post! You said it far better than I did.
Well, thanks, Steve. I didn't set out to write War and Peace, it just sorta turned out that way, LOL. I always find what you have to say to be informative and to the point. I wish others that post here would follow that example.
Singing to the choir
Amen brothers' Steve, John, Jason, Ormand etc etc etc....
I also believe in the facts as presented...especially if the plugs in cylinders 5&6 show improvement from a lean condition to a correct match of plugs in cylinders 1-4 after ONLY adding the power plate.
Fun reading everyone....we do have the best tech site and personalities in the wide world of speed
Todd
Amen brothers' Steve, John, Jason, Ormand etc etc etc....
I also believe in the facts as presented...especially if the plugs in cylinders 5&6 show improvement from a lean condition to a correct match of plugs in cylinders 1-4 after ONLY adding the power plate.
Fun reading everyone....we do have the best tech site and personalities in the wide world of speed
Todd
BoostedBug
Contents Under Pressure
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2002
Originally posted by strikeeagle
Hey Steve,
I've got 6 injectors for ya. I don't know what they flow but my car ran pretty good with them. At least I think it did - a buddy (who drives a Saturn) said it felt pretty fast. And the plugs looked OK, to me anyway. Want 'em?
Peace!!!
Which STeve are your referring to?
strikeeagle
New Member
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2001
Sorry,
I meant Steve Wood - the non-engineer who calls an engineer and eyeball engineer. I think I said that right...
I meant Steve Wood - the non-engineer who calls an engineer and eyeball engineer. I think I said that right...
