Moog 5658 front spring results

[jdpolzin]

I could care less about you trying to sell DSE's springs on here but your going to have to take the critism on it becuase this is a discussion here.

If we dropped the white car above another inch, I am pretty positive that Chuck, the owner, would be very unhappy. Same goes with OneFastGN's. The goal was to get them off the ground, not go even lower. My point is, 2" of drop is a lot out of a spring. Most people dont want that. I personally would never drop my car 2" with spring only becuase springs dont hold their rate and get worn out, no matter what spring you use stock or aftermarket. I would prefer to get 1" out of the spring and the rest elsewhere that wont change becuase of getting worn. The tall lower ball joints are the best way to go for that look for the money and they help the camber curve tremendously. I personally went with the ATS spindles because I liked the other benefits they offer.

Charlie and I were discussing parts store springs and the results they will give us. 5658's, 5660, etc. We are talking micro differences in these springs, 1/4", 3/8", 1/2". I'm sure someone will chime in with some measurements and picture with the 5660's. With a full 2" of drop out of the srings alone, how can you compare? I do agree that using 2" drop spring is an easy way to get the drop, what other components need to be purchased to keep alignment specs in par? What are the costs of the springs and the entire package to install them?

 

[jdpolzin]

I would like to hear what the height of a GN with stock spec alignment and stock height tires sits at with the DSE springs. Front and rear. Maybe the best way to get the back end down if thats what your looking for. I dont like the rear really low, I'm more of the mid level guy for the rear and my car needs it to hook, but some people are having a hard time finding rear springs that go LOW!

 

[D's GN]

I would like to hear what the height of a GN with stock spec alignment and stock height tires sits at with the DSE springs. Front and rear. Maybe the best way to get the back end down if thats what your looking for. I dont like the rear really low, I'm more of the mid level guy for the rear and my car needs it to hook, but some people are having a hard time finding rear springs that go LOW!

I will post my results with the Moog 5658 springs in 3 weeks when my CCW classics arrive, I currently have 2" drop spindles with stock springs which were on the car when I purchased it and honestly it rides like S***T even with custom valved Bilstein shocks installed last year.

New Setup
CCW classics- all silver polished
18x 8.5 fronts - 225/45
18x 10 Rears - 265/40 MT drag radial II

Front suspension
All new upper and lower Moog problem solver bushings
Moog K6411 Front LCA
Moog K6421 Front UCA
Proforged Tall lower ball joint- 101-10048 (.5" taller/reduces ride height by approx. 7/8")
3" Arp Front Wheel studs- ARP- 100-7713
Moog 5658
Bilstein Shocks

Rear Suspension
Belltech 2" drop springs (currently on car)
TRZ- adjustable height spring perches
HR- Sway bar
Bilstein Shocks
UMI Lowers
Edelbrock adjustable uppers
Arp 3" wheel studs

Datar

 

[jdpolzin]

Datar, what did those TRZ's end up running you? I use the BellTech rears in my Stage 2 car and love them. They will be staying in! I would have to look back in this thread but I think they got me 1.25-1.5" of drop roughly.

 

[scot w.]

I could care less about you trying to sell DSE's springs on here but your going to have to take the critism on it becuase this is a discussion here.

If we dropped the white car above another inch, I am pretty positive that Chuck, the owner, would be very unhappy. Same goes with OneFastGN's. The goal was to get them off the ground, not go even lower. My point is, 2" of drop is a lot out of a spring. Most people dont want that. I personally would never drop my car 2" with spring only becuase springs dont hold their rate and get worn out, no matter what spring you use stock or aftermarket. I would prefer to get 1" out of the spring and the rest elsewhere that wont change becuase of getting worn. The tall lower ball joints are the best way to go for that look for the money and they help the camber curve tremendously. I personally went with the ATS spindles because I liked the other benefits they offer.

Charlie and I were discussing parts store springs and the results they will give us. 5658's, 5660, etc. We are talking micro differences in these springs, 1/4", 3/8", 1/2". I'm sure someone will chime in with some measurements and picture with the 5660's. With a full 2" of drop out of the srings alone, how can you compare? I do agree that using 2" drop spring is an easy way to get the drop, what other components need to be purchased to keep alignment specs in par? What are the costs of the springs and the entire package to install them?

Jeremy, You and I have had our share of differences here and it's obvious by now we agree to disagree on many things but I still admire your accomplishments, I didn't post here to sell or push anything but simply replied to you when you asked for people to list "other springs" and feedback so I did.. I wasn't aware it would get you upset.... I know this is a discussion here and taking critisism is fine with me and you should do the same. What I posted was for comparisson porposes only so others know what other springs do and look like on a car, that's all.....

You seem to keep mentioning that a 2" drop is alot and that you would prefer to get only 1", Well I don't know if you missed it or not but just because a spring is a 2" drop Does Not mean that is what you get! I have said it before, when we took out the stock old springs and installed the DSE 2" drop springs "It only lowered my front end by 7/8" !! That's Less than an inch!

You will Never get a Full 2" drop out of 2" drop springs, nor will you ever get a full 1" drop out of 1" drop springs by replacing the 20+ year old wore out springs! If your goal is to get a 1" drop from where the 20+ year old car is sitting at this time then a 2" drop spring will do just that....


SW.

.

 

[charlief1]

Charlie and I were discussing parts store springs and the results they will give us. 5658's, 5660, etc. We are talking micro differences in these springs, 1/4", 3/8", 1/2". I'm sure someone will chime in with some measurements and picture with the 5660's. With a full 2" of drop out of the srings alone, how can you compare? I do agree that using 2" drop spring is an easy way to get the drop, what other components need to be purchased to keep alignment specs in par? What are the costs of the springs and the entire package to install them?

A 2" drop spring compared to a worn stock spring won't change the height much so that's a bit of a moot point Jeremy. Most of the cars out there right now are still running a bad stock spring and after 25 years of sitting on them they should be replaced to put the car back to a decent ride height. The springs from the 70's and 80's really sucked for quality and even my old 89 Olds needs springs at this point since the car looks like a low rider.

What a lot of people don't realize is that the control arms are just a lever and depending on where the spring is placed on the lower arm will change the ride quality some. If you could move the spring in on the arm 1/2" you could use a much stiffer spring and get a decent ride because the leverage on the spring would be changed. As another thing to think about, the bushings have give in them but it's a semi solid mount so while there's some movement it flexes more than anything else. If you put a delalum or simular bushing in the lowers and went with a better upper the arms move more so you can get a better ride out of the car. Stock bushings work fine in most cases but the freedom of movement will allow the arms to move up and down easier so the springs do more work and the bushings don't bind.

I will post my results with the Moog 5658 springs in 3 weeks when my CCW classics arrive, I currently have 2" drop spindles with stock springs which were on the car when I purchased it and honestly it rides like S***T even with custom valved Bilstein shocks installed last year.

Datar

As dumb as it sounds it doesn't suprise me that the car drove like a brick with that combo of parts. Dropped spindles are one of those late 70's early 80's things that sort of kept going but seems to be dying off to some degree. The idea was good but the designs have some issues and if you combine them with a 2" drop spring you most likely were hitting the bump stops a lot not to mention the frame in a dip. Once you get everything put back on I think you'll be very suprised how much better the car rides. I will however point out that the tires were also taken into consideration when they did the suspension. The 65 and 70 series tires were used to help the ride be a little softer since the sidewalls flexed just like the suspension moved so you got quality of ride. If you've ever driven a second or third gen Corvette you know what I mean when it comes to a rough ride. They were made for handling with the understanding that we had when they were made. Even one of the old MG's were a little rough to ride in but with the advance of technology that we've got now ride quality has gone up and handling has improved greatly.

 

[jdpolzin]

I'm not upset at all. I just cant give my personal opinions without upsetting the heard in this section anymore, the only reason I said that you would have to accept some critisism. Now that you are selling something that has to do with this section, the only thing that can be discussed is DSE products. General, good, non bias information is what I'm after. There are a million different products availabe outside of TB.com, some are good and some are junk. So, I just didnt really want to go there, is what I was trying to say really. No big deal.

Of course your not going to accomplish a 1",2", or 3" drop when compared to worn stock springs, people need to understand that first and foremost. Drop results should be calculated as comparing to new replacement or low mile unabused springs, which is what was posted in the first page.

If you tried to post DSE springs as 1" drop springs, there would be a lot of people upset after they installed them. Just the same as posting 5658's as 1" lift springs, lots of boys with 24's would be pissed!

Apples and Oranges. I'm after a spring that is low cost, 1" lower than stock replacements, good spring rates, etc.

 

[D's GN]

Datar, what did those TRZ's end up running you? I use the BellTech rears in my Stage 2 car and love them. They will be staying in! I would have to look back in this thread but I think they got me 1.25-1.5" of drop roughly.

My mistake, they are actually a 1.5" drop spring, the other 1/2" drop is from the subwoofer box in the trunk! lol

The TRZ g-body perches were about $160.00

 

[~JM~]

What about the Eibach spring kit that Summit sells? Anyone familiar with those springs?

~JM~

 

[jdpolzin]

I've used the Eibachs in the past but they tend to sag in the rear. They arent bad though.

 

[WH1_T-Type]

Yep, my bad!!!

I'm putting 5660's in the front of my WH1 in the next two days. Can't promise pics REAL soon, but should be within a week.

 

[scot w.]

I would like to hear what the height of a GN with stock spec alignment and stock height tires sits at with the DSE springs.

Here is what Mike said in an e-mail to me today....

My original measurements before the DSE shocks and springs were all between 26.5'' and 27'' measuring in the fashion that you mentioned. After the DSE stuff it measured 25'' exactly on all four corners with 235/60/15's on stock wheels.

On my car the springs only dropped the front by 7/8" so my old springs must have been sagging bad!



SW.

 

[jdpolzin]

That sounds about right. My 21K mile GN measured exactly 27" all the way around. So did the low mile Limited and another GN that we installed new stock replacement springs on.

Mike's 235/60s are the same height as an original 215/65 tire so basically the DSE springs are 2" drop all the way around.

 

[jdpolzin]

I'm putting 5660's in the front of my WH1 in the next two days. Can't promise pics REAL soon, but should be within a week.

Cool! I'll be looking forward to the measurements.

 

[charlief1]

Cool! I'll be looking forward to the measurements.

Matt's planning on doing a full write up on what he's doing so we can see how well the whole package works on the car Jeremy. That's all I'm gonna say for now but it's a pretty good group of parts that should make the car handle a lot better than stock.

 

[scot w.]

That sounds about right. My 21K mile GN measured exactly 27" all the way around. So did the low mile Limited and another GN that we installed new stock replacement springs on.

Mike's 235/60s are the same height as an original 215/65 tire so basically the DSE springs are 2" drop all the way around.

Yes but Only if the stock springs were not worn out or sagged will you get a 2" drop! Plus I don't know if he had the original stock springs in or if he had aftermarket stock replacement springs in.... I will have to ask him....

I'm Not saying the springs are "Not" a 2" drop, but what I am saying is most everyone on here is replacing the stock worn out saggy springs then a 2" drop spring will only get you around a 1" or so depending on how badly the old springs are sagging....

One thing the members here need to know is that ALL spring manufactures whether it be Moog, Eibach, Hotchkis, DSE or whoever, base their springs height off of the Factory spec heights and that is "Normally" Not what your going to see once installed when removing old stock springs.. I know you know that but many here don't...

BTW: What are the measurements of Chuck's car?

 

[jdpolzin]

Cool, so more than just springs I take it? So measurements may not be exactly straight for a 5660 spring swap? Or can we deduct for tall lower BJ's and find out measurements from there?

 

[charlief1]

Cool, so more than just springs I take it? So measurements may not be exactly straight for a 5660 spring swap? Or can we deduct for tall lower BJ's and find out measurements from there?

You'll just have to wait Jeremy. Don't want to let the cat out of the bag to soon after all.

 

[jdpolzin]

Yes but Only if the stock springs were not worn out or sagged will you get a 2" drop! Plus I don't know if he had the original stock springs in or if he had aftermarket stock replacement springs in.... I will have to ask him....

I'm Not saying the springs are "Not" a 2" drop, but what I am saying is most everyone on here is replacing the stock worn out saggy springs then a 2" drop spring will only get you around a 1" or so depending on how badly the old springs are sagging....

One thing the members here need to know is that ALL spring manufactures whether it be Moog, Eibach, Hotchkis, DSE or whoever, base their springs height off of the Factory spec heights and that is "Normally" Not what your going to see once installed when removing old stock springs.. I know you know that but many here don't...

BTW: What are the measurements of Chuck's car?

I agree! It gets very frustrating trying to help people when they compare to worn out springs. There is never a straight across measurement when your comparing to used springs. The only true measurement woould be compared to new stock replacement springs!

I actually never measured his ride height. I'll call him up and have him measure real quick.

 

[charlief1]

Just remember that the ride height is measured at the rocker pannels behind the front wheels and in front of the rear wheels. Stock with stock tires and wheels it should be between 9 & 1/8" and 10 & 5/8". Make sure to allow for different tire/wheel combos once you measure everything.