how many people are using vacuum brakes?

TurboDave said:
Excuse me for saying so, but what FlyinGN said about holding "plenty" of boost really doesn't mean much. After all, he didn't specify any amount at all. Maybe 5-10# is a "lot" or "plenty" for some.
Holding boost on the line is near the top of my priority list, as it is with many other that really want to optimize ET and MPH, and need a good launch to do it.
Personally, if I can't hold 15-20# on the line then I would never give up my PM.
BTW, for those that mention it, Just because Pontiac didn't use the PM, doesn't mean a thing. There were reasons why they didn't, and unless anybody knows for sure why they didn't, speculating on why is pretty useless, after all.
Vacuum brakes just aren't "the hot ticket" on boosted (epsecially turbo'd) applications.
On most mild mannered street apps. it's fine, but when there's going to be a lot of boost used, or boost over a consistently long period of time, vacuum brakes would be a dangerous detriment.

Probably why Ford still uses the HydroBoost system on their Powerstroke diesels. Lots of boost and under boost virtually all the time.

If I didn't ever take my GN to the track, vacuums would probably be fine also.

I switched to vacuum brakes about 3½ years ago and I would never go back to the pm set up. I bought Red's conversion kit and there has never been a minute's trouble out of it. I have the usual braking mods, S-10 wheel cylinders, large brake shoes ( I get 2 sets and use the larger ones out of both sets ). I have changed my set up ( I rebuilt my motor over the winter, spring, and summer, lol ) but with my old set up that consisted of a PT61 Ptrim, FMIC, 50, vigilante n/l 0 pump, T+ and extender, all the bolt on stuff. I can hold 15-20 psi on the footbrake at the lights all day long. Mid 1.5 60' times on slicks and high 1.6's on dr's. This is an 11.40 car with the previously mentioned set up. Don't know why some people don't have good luck with the vacuum set up. I was worried about the potential of not being able to build the boost I'm accustom to at the line, but it holds the same if not better than the pm. If the braking system is in good working condition and up to snuff, you shouldn't have a problem at all with the vacuum set up and still be able to launch at the track like you want.
 
Here is a tip that works for vacuum brakes and holding boost ( this might be in a thread somewhere ).

On my turbo Talon I was pushing it throught the lights while only holding 4 psi. I then put it in neutral, blipped the gas and then hammered the brakes when the vacuum peaked ( 24 inches ) and hoped this would help. It did, solid as a rock compared to the old 13" brake torques of the past.

I plan on doing this upgrade while my motor is out this fall, I am no longer concerned with holding boost at the line. ;)
 
xrunner123 said:
Sorry to jump in here, but if the powermaster fails do you totally lose all braking capabilities. And if the vacuum brakes fail do you also loose them? Do I do the 'if it's not broken don't fix it'?
You lose them just long enough for your stomach to feel like you're on a BIG roller coaster. :eek: Mine got a super hard pedal feel, and didn't do squat for a very scary long feeling 1-2 seconds. Then the pedal would drop and since by now you were all but standing on the pedal praying for your life, the brakes would come and almost rip the seat belt loose from the mounts! :mad: I'm sure there are scenarios where you could lose all your brakes at once with either system, but vacuum is still better imo.

Switch and you won't ever go back. Get one of the billet aluminum vacuum blocks w/new gasket for your vacuum line hookup. I used a T off the pcv line originally, but that didn't offer a quick enough vacuum supply to suit me.
 
If Anyone Needs A Kit I Got One

I Got A New Master Cylinder That Has Maybe 6 Hundred Miles On It Booster Is Good Checkvalve Good Too And I Have The Vaccum Block Billit Aluminum One In Good Shape Works Good All I Will Sell For $125 Shipped.
 
bttwracing86T said:
I Got A New Master Cylinder That Has Maybe 6 Hundred Miles On It Booster Is Good Checkvalve Good Too And I Have The Vaccum Block Billit Aluminum One In Good Shape Works Good All I Will Sell For $125 Shipped.
Wow! Good deal for someone there. I wish I had the extra money. I'd pick it up for a spare. Who know's when I'll need it though, as these just keep on working away. :smile:
 
:eek:
Tried them & went back to pm after the 3rd leak. Tried swapping out the one way valve in an effort to prevent recurrance of the leak.

The ecm puts more fuel in whenever you have a vacuum leak. The booster leak changs every time you mash the brake pedal, making IAC adjustment impossible.

When I went back to pm, the leak was so badthe TR was ideling on the highway at 70mph.

The earlier '84 & '85 hydro boost is also a reliable unit.
 
Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster

Well the 84-85 Hydroboost is a "reliable unit" but they don't make them anymore. The new units we have are very reliable and NEW. They also have a larger power piston inside for more power. To say that turbo charging a vacuum booster is a great idea did not work with Buick. They WOULD HAVE DONE IT AT THE FACTORY. They did not. This site has documented several brake failures when the boost pressure blew the hose off the check valve, or blew apart the plastic check valve. Turbo charging the rubber valve inside the check valve can cause it to be forced inside the vacuum booster, causing loss of brake power, i.e. hard pedal. This site has CONTINUOUSLY and DAILY documented problems with the POWERMASTER, for YEARS. Buick never built one TURBO CHARGED REGAL with a vacuum booster. WHY? NO, REALLY, WHY? The Syclones and Typhoons did not come with POWERMASTERS in 1993, because GM had given up on the POWERMASTER by then. The Typhoons were actually sent to an outside builder in Michigan to have the turbo's installed, and not built at GM. Guess what? they are asking for HYDROBOOST's now. We are building one for JEG'S Typhoon now, as they can't hold it on the line. The only reason that a hydroboost would be slow releasing is because the 2 returns lines are tee'd together, slowing the fluid's return. The 2004 Chev SS pickups had to have a Mickey Mouse vacuum pump attached to the booster because they would not stop. We remove both and install Hydroboost. Guess What? in 2005, the HYDROBOOST was standard equip on the SS and the ESCALADE, The 12" Vacuum boosters could not stop them. I have been building VACUUM BOOSTERS FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS, and many of them sensitized for HANDICAPPED VEHICLES. I know how to make any vacuum booster work better, and have rebuilt thousands of them. I started the use of the Delco vacuum pump when they came out, because I was a Delco W.D. in the 80's and researched it then. THEY STILL NEED VACUUM TO WORK, AND A TURBOCHARGED ENGINE ONLY HAS HALF OF WHAT THE BOOSTER NEEDS. Someone keeps pointing to the TTA. O.K., buy one and junk the GN. That engine and my ZR1 had the camshafts ground to achieve some vacuum when the throttle shut. Otherwise there is not enough vacuum to haul a heavy, high speed vehicle down from speed with only half the brake pressure needed. The HYDROBOOST HAS SO MUCH PRESSURE AVAILABLE, IT CAN SPREAD THE CALIPER OPEN. YOU CAN FEEL IT OPEN WITH YOUR HAND ON IT. The HYDROBOOST can stop 15,000lb trucks. Can a 8" dia vacuum booster with 12" of vacuum stop it? NO. Is there someone on this site actually in the brake business that would say the Hydroboost will not work? The square inches of diaphragm area is multiplied by the inches of vacuum available to pull against the dias. Reduce the vacuum, and reduce the power output of a vacuum unit.
 
Hydroboost Vs Vacuum Vs Powermaster

I forgot. On the SYTY.com site (SYCLONE/TYPHOON) there is a very happy hydroboost user, and his Typhoon runs 10.60's. He claims to launch at any RPM and hold on the line
 
Failure

Well what you say is interesting on failure. I have an Olds wagon that had Power Master brakes and had an improper conversion to vac. boost. I decided to bite the bullet and go back to Power Master. Got a good deal if you can call it that from AutoZone. I'm happy. Brakes that work! For awhile. Pretty soon fuses are blowing. Turns out when I disassembled the motor on the PM the plastic type substance that they use to help insulate the windings was put on a little to freely. Chunks had broken off and were jamming up the motor until it would blow the fuse. I had lost the receit, so that's why I was taking it apart myself. I broke a brush during disassembly. I was tired of the whole thing and am in the process of converting properly to vac. even if it means adding an accumulator I guess. So, remanufacturers oversights are another variable to add in. Obviously somebody isn't too carefull in the process. I haven't had a problem with a rebuilt vac. booster in 30+ years of automotive work both professionally and at home.
Thanks for reading,
Tim Kraemer

Still on failed brakes? Usually brakes fail from improper servicing. The only time to modify the brakes is when you have exceeded the O.E. parameters, or in the case of Lincoln LS's, Turbo coupe T Birds, and Buick Grand Nationals, their 80's design electric/hydraulic brake pumps wear out. The automakers experimented with these systems not knowing how they would fare 20 years later, nor did they care. it worked for them at the time. You keep refering to brakes failing on what? Race cars? All of the examples you have given, and someone's book you referred to, concern drag race cars, not even related to G.N.'s. I would guess that 95% of G.N.'s on this site are street cars, driven by street drivers. Most real drag cars have trans brakes, and are not subject to most G.N.'s here. To realistically drive this type of high performance STREET CAR everyday, in traffic, (in California it is a chariot race to work everyday) you need immediate brake response. Just driving to work does not heat up the rotors red hot, as in a road race. The rotors are relatively cool on the freeways. (That's why there are holes in the wheels, to spin air around the rotors) IF a G.N. won't stop like you want down at the first stop sign in the morning, cold, then it has nothing to do with rotor heat. The booster is what applies the pressure to the brakes. You say that Buick did not know how to match the brakes on the G.N.? Call them, and ask why. They used the Powermaster from the factory for a reason, instead of vacuum, because they knew the liability of blowing the hose off the check valve, and that may have happened to them at the test track. They knew the vacuum limitations of a 231ci , turbocharged engine. They test this stuff before they sell it to the public. GM only looks at things as to how they will be sued for brake failures. They elected not to install a standard Regal booster and pedal in a heavy car with this potential for speed. In 1986, a vacuum booster only cost GM $15.00 from Delco. Why didn't they use it? Obviously, the Powermaster had to cost them a LOT MORE, and they still used it. The main downfall of the P/M is that it pumps brake fluid under high pressure. Brake fluid is not really a lubricant. Worse, it absorbs moisture from the air, making it corrosive to the system, and the pump. The phenolic vanes, pumping brake fluid, wear out, and the pump can't reach the 2400psi needed to open the gray pressure switch to shut off the 12v motor. That's why the hydroboost is superior. It receives it's pressure from the p/s pump. As long as the engine runs, there is pressure available. The accumulator takes over if you need high pressure stopping after the engine is off. As long as the p/s fluid is kept clean, (it is an oil) the Hydroboost will always perform.
 
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