crownvic96
Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2005
if you're really worried about losing vacuum you can get vacuum cannisters from summit racing from 33-86 bucks. problem solved 
how many people are using vacuum brakes?
- Thread starter the wrath
- Start date
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
73 MOPAR
HI MR 440. WE RECENTLY BUILT A HYDROBOOST SYSTEM FOR CHRYSLER FOR THEIR NEW 540 ALUM HEMI THAT THEY INSTALLED IN A 71 PURPLE CHALLENGER THAT WAS FEATURED AT THE DETROIT AUTO SHOW. OUR HYDROBOOST CLEARED THE MASSIVE HEMI,WHICH HAD DUAL THROTTLE BODIES AND APPROX 900 HP. THIS ENGINE HAS VERY LITTLE VACUUM. THE HYDROBOOST WAS ABLE TO FIT NEXT TO THE ENGINE AND PROVIDED THE 2000PSI TO THE WILWOOD CALIPERS. WE WOULD LIKE TO EMAIL YOU SOME PHOTOS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL CAR.
HI MR 440. WE RECENTLY BUILT A HYDROBOOST SYSTEM FOR CHRYSLER FOR THEIR NEW 540 ALUM HEMI THAT THEY INSTALLED IN A 71 PURPLE CHALLENGER THAT WAS FEATURED AT THE DETROIT AUTO SHOW. OUR HYDROBOOST CLEARED THE MASSIVE HEMI,WHICH HAD DUAL THROTTLE BODIES AND APPROX 900 HP. THIS ENGINE HAS VERY LITTLE VACUUM. THE HYDROBOOST WAS ABLE TO FIT NEXT TO THE ENGINE AND PROVIDED THE 2000PSI TO THE WILWOOD CALIPERS. WE WOULD LIKE TO EMAIL YOU SOME PHOTOS OF THIS BEAUTIFUL CAR.
zilla440@aol.com.....thanks..
Re: 73 MOPAR
Got any data logs of an otherwise stock brake setup on a Gn stopping, you can share to prove your point about how great your setup is?.
Pretty pictures are nice, but data is what really matters. Lets see how much better they are then some other system. And being's this is a GN list, lets see a GN/TR log.
Your premise about it all being about line pressure is flawed, IMO.
BTW, for those that actually care about braking systems, Dave Morgan in his book Doorslamers, and in the Tune to Win series of books they also cover braking systems. The HP book at a glance didn't seem to have much real data.
Then again Googling should get some good info., about designing a proper brake system.
Got any data logs of an otherwise stock brake setup on a Gn stopping, you can share to prove your point about how great your setup is?.
Pretty pictures are nice, but data is what really matters. Lets see how much better they are then some other system. And being's this is a GN list, lets see a GN/TR log.
Your premise about it all being about line pressure is flawed, IMO.
BTW, for those that actually care about braking systems, Dave Morgan in his book Doorslamers, and in the Tune to Win series of books they also cover braking systems. The HP book at a glance didn't seem to have much real data.
Then again Googling should get some good info., about designing a proper brake system.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
DESIGNING BRAKE SYSTEMS
ANOTHER CHALLENGE? NO PROBLEM. AS WE KNOW, THE 83 -85 T TYPES CAME WITH HYDROBOOSTS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYONE ON THIS SITE COMPLAIN THAT THEY DON'T WORK. BUICK DECIDED THAT SUPERCHARGING A VACUUM POWER BRAKE WAS NOT A GREAT IDEA. THE HOSE BLOWS OFF (DOCUMENTED HERE 4 TIMES), THE CHECK VALVE HAS A LITTLE RUBBER FLAP TO BLOCK MANIFOLD PRESSURE, WHICH CAN BE FORCED INTO THE BOOSTER, AND THE CAP ON THE CHECK VALVE IS ONLY HELD WITH A DAB OF GLUE. IT NORMALLY IS UNDER VACUUM. YES, IT CAN BLOW OFF. BUICK USED FIRST THE H/B, AND THEN THE POWERMASTER. NO T/R'S CAME WITH VACUUM.THE HYDROBOOSTS WE USE ACTUALLY HAVE A LARGER POWER PISTON INTERNALLY FOR EVEN MORE POWER THAN THE 83-85 UNITS. THEY CAN STOP 14,000LB TRUCKS, USING UP TO A 1.625" PISTON IN THE MASTER. WE USE A 1.125" MASTER. IT DOESN'T EVEN LOAD THE H/B TO PUSH THIS SMALL SIZE MASTER. WE BUILT THE BRAKE SYSTEM FOR BULGARI'S GN WHEN IT HAD 14 MILES ON IT. THE GOAL WAS TO HAVE A 200MPH POTENTIAL CAR TO BE SHIPPED TO EUROPE. DUTTWEILER WAS COMMSIONED TO BUILD THE ENGINE, ART CARR BUILT THE TRANS, GULDSTRAND DID THE SUSPENSION, POWER BRAKE SERVICE DESIGNED THE BRAKES FOR THE 200MPH GOAL. THIS WAS IN 1987. WE USED THE B BODY FRONT BRAKES, EL DORADO REAR BRAKES, AND A HYDROBOOST. EVERYONE WAS PLEASED. SINCE THEN, WE HAVE REBUILT AND MODIFIED MANY P/M'S. WE DISASSEMBLED THE CRIMPED MOTOR/PUMP, AND FOUND THE VANES WERE PHENOLIC. PUMPING BRAKE FLUID WITH PLASTIC VANES AT HIGH PRESSURE IS NOT A GREAT IDEA, AS BRAKE FLUID HAS LITTLE LUBRICITY. THE VANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE, EVEN IF WE COULD RECRIMP THE PUMP. YES, THERE IS LIABILITY IF THE PUMP FAILS. THESE 12V PUMPS ARE NOW 20 YEARS OLD. IS ANYONE HERE OFFERING LIABILITY INSURANCE TO THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE IF THEIR VACUUM BRAKE CONVERSION (NOT RECOMMENDED BY BUICK) FAILS? I HAVEN'T SEEN IT. WE PERFORMED SEVERAL VACUUM POWER BRAKE CONVERSIONS IN OUR OWN SHOP, ADDING VACUUM TANKS, AND VAC PUMPS. THE CUSTOMERS WERE NEVER REALLY SATISFIED. IT WORKED O.K. TO DRIVE TO WORK, BUT THAT WAS IT. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS RETURNED A HYDROBOOST TO US, CLAIMING IT WOULD NOT WORK. THAT OFFER IS OUT THERE, THOUGH. IF ANYONE TRIES OUR NEW BOSCH/BENDIX HYDROBOOST UNITS AND DOES NOT FEEL IT IS THE BEST BRAKE SYSTEM OUT THERE, WE WILL ACCEPT THE RETURN FOR A FULL REFUND. (IF IT IS UNDAMAGED) NO PROBLEM. DESIGN BRAKE SYSTEMS? YES I DO.
ANOTHER CHALLENGE? NO PROBLEM. AS WE KNOW, THE 83 -85 T TYPES CAME WITH HYDROBOOSTS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYONE ON THIS SITE COMPLAIN THAT THEY DON'T WORK. BUICK DECIDED THAT SUPERCHARGING A VACUUM POWER BRAKE WAS NOT A GREAT IDEA. THE HOSE BLOWS OFF (DOCUMENTED HERE 4 TIMES), THE CHECK VALVE HAS A LITTLE RUBBER FLAP TO BLOCK MANIFOLD PRESSURE, WHICH CAN BE FORCED INTO THE BOOSTER, AND THE CAP ON THE CHECK VALVE IS ONLY HELD WITH A DAB OF GLUE. IT NORMALLY IS UNDER VACUUM. YES, IT CAN BLOW OFF. BUICK USED FIRST THE H/B, AND THEN THE POWERMASTER. NO T/R'S CAME WITH VACUUM.THE HYDROBOOSTS WE USE ACTUALLY HAVE A LARGER POWER PISTON INTERNALLY FOR EVEN MORE POWER THAN THE 83-85 UNITS. THEY CAN STOP 14,000LB TRUCKS, USING UP TO A 1.625" PISTON IN THE MASTER. WE USE A 1.125" MASTER. IT DOESN'T EVEN LOAD THE H/B TO PUSH THIS SMALL SIZE MASTER. WE BUILT THE BRAKE SYSTEM FOR BULGARI'S GN WHEN IT HAD 14 MILES ON IT. THE GOAL WAS TO HAVE A 200MPH POTENTIAL CAR TO BE SHIPPED TO EUROPE. DUTTWEILER WAS COMMSIONED TO BUILD THE ENGINE, ART CARR BUILT THE TRANS, GULDSTRAND DID THE SUSPENSION, POWER BRAKE SERVICE DESIGNED THE BRAKES FOR THE 200MPH GOAL. THIS WAS IN 1987. WE USED THE B BODY FRONT BRAKES, EL DORADO REAR BRAKES, AND A HYDROBOOST. EVERYONE WAS PLEASED. SINCE THEN, WE HAVE REBUILT AND MODIFIED MANY P/M'S. WE DISASSEMBLED THE CRIMPED MOTOR/PUMP, AND FOUND THE VANES WERE PHENOLIC. PUMPING BRAKE FLUID WITH PLASTIC VANES AT HIGH PRESSURE IS NOT A GREAT IDEA, AS BRAKE FLUID HAS LITTLE LUBRICITY. THE VANES WERE NOT AVAILABLE, EVEN IF WE COULD RECRIMP THE PUMP. YES, THERE IS LIABILITY IF THE PUMP FAILS. THESE 12V PUMPS ARE NOW 20 YEARS OLD. IS ANYONE HERE OFFERING LIABILITY INSURANCE TO THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE IF THEIR VACUUM BRAKE CONVERSION (NOT RECOMMENDED BY BUICK) FAILS? I HAVEN'T SEEN IT. WE PERFORMED SEVERAL VACUUM POWER BRAKE CONVERSIONS IN OUR OWN SHOP, ADDING VACUUM TANKS, AND VAC PUMPS. THE CUSTOMERS WERE NEVER REALLY SATISFIED. IT WORKED O.K. TO DRIVE TO WORK, BUT THAT WAS IT. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS RETURNED A HYDROBOOST TO US, CLAIMING IT WOULD NOT WORK. THAT OFFER IS OUT THERE, THOUGH. IF ANYONE TRIES OUR NEW BOSCH/BENDIX HYDROBOOST UNITS AND DOES NOT FEEL IT IS THE BEST BRAKE SYSTEM OUT THERE, WE WILL ACCEPT THE RETURN FOR A FULL REFUND. (IF IT IS UNDAMAGED) NO PROBLEM. DESIGN BRAKE SYSTEMS? YES I DO.
Re: DESIGNING BRAKE SYSTEMS
SO STILL NO DATA LOG TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT LINE PRESSURE?. OH, OK, THAT SUMS IT UP.
I SPEC'D **PROPPER BRAKING SYSTEM**.
THANKS FOR YELLING, DID IT HELP?.
BTW, GM USED TO USE CARBS ON ALL THEIR CARS, SO MUCH FOR RELYING ON WHAT THEY USED IN THE PAST AS BEING THE BEST ANSWER POSSIBLE.
HOW MUCH IS LIST ON YOUR SET-UP?.
LET'S DO A COST ANALYSE ON WHAT YOUR UNIT LISTS FOR, AND WHAT CAN BE DONE FOR THAT SAME AMOUNT, IN INCREASING THE ABILITY OF THE SYSTEM TO SHED HEAT, AND DEVELOPE SOME DECENT CLAMOING FORCES.
I REALLY LIKE FOLKS THAT MAKE CLAIMS WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL TESTING, ie DATALOGS. YOU'VE MADE A CLAIM ABOUT PREESSURES BEING THE ANSWER WITHOUT REGUARD TO ROTORS, AND CALIPERS.
I yelled my response only in kind to your tactic. If you want to type in caps, fine, it just makes it harder to read, and doesn't help your position.
SO STILL NO DATA LOG TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT LINE PRESSURE?. OH, OK, THAT SUMS IT UP.
I SPEC'D **PROPPER BRAKING SYSTEM**.
THANKS FOR YELLING, DID IT HELP?.
BTW, GM USED TO USE CARBS ON ALL THEIR CARS, SO MUCH FOR RELYING ON WHAT THEY USED IN THE PAST AS BEING THE BEST ANSWER POSSIBLE.
HOW MUCH IS LIST ON YOUR SET-UP?.
LET'S DO A COST ANALYSE ON WHAT YOUR UNIT LISTS FOR, AND WHAT CAN BE DONE FOR THAT SAME AMOUNT, IN INCREASING THE ABILITY OF THE SYSTEM TO SHED HEAT, AND DEVELOPE SOME DECENT CLAMOING FORCES.
I REALLY LIKE FOLKS THAT MAKE CLAIMS WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL TESTING, ie DATALOGS. YOU'VE MADE A CLAIM ABOUT PREESSURES BEING THE ANSWER WITHOUT REGUARD TO ROTORS, AND CALIPERS.
I yelled my response only in kind to your tactic. If you want to type in caps, fine, it just makes it harder to read, and doesn't help your position.
Re: DESIGNING BRAKE SYSTEMS
Here's some real numbers.
I'm curious on how do you plan on answering the *challenge*?. By the way, you're the one that started the *challenge* with your claim of line pressure being paramount.
It would seem apparent, well at least to me, that rotor size, and caliper design due play an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT ROLE, in addition to proper M/C sizing.
Extremely high line pressures as you suggest as being *just a good* thing, to the exclusion of other factors, only would only make threshold braking more difficult.
Looks like the results speak for themselves.
While I don't design Brake Systems, it would appear that my setup works extremely well, and just almost all oem parts. Stuff available at the corner parts store.
In GM High Tech Mag.
A stock GN took
524' to stop from 100
319' from 80
179' from 60
Vacuum Assist dropped that to
421' 100->0
261' 80->0
150' 60->0
Populat Hot Rodding just did a Baer conversion on 76 Camaro
Stock 60->0 was 217'
Better Tires 60-> 164'
Then after adding A Baer Font end kit, at $1,345, and rears at $875, $2,220, plus a M/C.
Managed to stop from 60-> in 134'
Today while playing with my new G-Tech RR. Using my 02 Camaro fronts at $650, and $250 rears, I did
75->0 153'
80->0 175'
Toss in a vac conversion for $75, and another $25 for misc.
Total $1,000........
Without having optimized the brake balance, and these were just first tries. The 75->0 was with some front wheel lock up.
I should mention that it's plowing time, so the roads were rather dusty. Oh, justa vacuum power booster. Should I mention that having another 1,000 PSI of line pressure would just have locked up the fronts easier?. The 85 Regal Master Cylinder, vaccum booster setup. 225/50x16 fronts, and 285/45x17 rears, all are DKW BF Goodrich.
PS, I also have what I hope to be is a better M/C to install.
Here's some real numbers.
I'm curious on how do you plan on answering the *challenge*?. By the way, you're the one that started the *challenge* with your claim of line pressure being paramount.
It would seem apparent, well at least to me, that rotor size, and caliper design due play an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT ROLE, in addition to proper M/C sizing.
Extremely high line pressures as you suggest as being *just a good* thing, to the exclusion of other factors, only would only make threshold braking more difficult.
Looks like the results speak for themselves.
While I don't design Brake Systems, it would appear that my setup works extremely well, and just almost all oem parts. Stuff available at the corner parts store.
In GM High Tech Mag.
A stock GN took
524' to stop from 100
319' from 80
179' from 60
Vacuum Assist dropped that to
421' 100->0
261' 80->0
150' 60->0
Populat Hot Rodding just did a Baer conversion on 76 Camaro
Stock 60->0 was 217'
Better Tires 60-> 164'
Then after adding A Baer Font end kit, at $1,345, and rears at $875, $2,220, plus a M/C.
Managed to stop from 60-> in 134'
Today while playing with my new G-Tech RR. Using my 02 Camaro fronts at $650, and $250 rears, I did
75->0 153'
80->0 175'
Toss in a vac conversion for $75, and another $25 for misc.
Total $1,000........
Without having optimized the brake balance, and these were just first tries. The 75->0 was with some front wheel lock up.
I should mention that it's plowing time, so the roads were rather dusty. Oh, justa vacuum power booster. Should I mention that having another 1,000 PSI of line pressure would just have locked up the fronts easier?. The 85 Regal Master Cylinder, vaccum booster setup. 225/50x16 fronts, and 285/45x17 rears, all are DKW BF Goodrich.
PS, I also have what I hope to be is a better M/C to install.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
BRAKES
I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT ALL THE RESISTANCE IS ABOUT. WE HAVE BEEN IN THE POWER BRAKE REBUILDING BUSINESS FOR 55 YEARS. WHICH VACUUM (VACUUM NOT VACCUM) BOOSTER DO YOU THINK WE MISSED REBUILDING? WE ACTUALLY TAKE THEM APART, CLEAN AND REPLACE ALL WORN PARTS, AND ON REQUEST MODIFY THE VALVING TO INCREASE THE POWER OUTPUT OF A VACUUM BOOSTER. WE HAVE DONE IT. GOING BACK TO MY EXAMPLE OF THE HANDICAPPED WITH HAND CONTROLS, WE CAN AND HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MODIFY THEIR BRAKE SO THAT JUST THE WEIGHT OF THIER HAND CAN STOP A BIG FULL SIZE VAN AT SPEED. NO, WE DID NOT PUT ON 17" WHEELS AND BAER BRAKES ON BIG VANS TO ACCOMODATE 13" ROTORS. THOSE DID NOT EXIST OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS WE PERFORMED THESE CONVERSIONS. IT WAS ALL DONE WITH PRESSURE. WE CAN LOCK UP THE BRAKES ON ANYTHING WITH ENOUGH PRESSURE, INCLUDING AIR BRAKES. THE POINT BEING, VACUUM BOOSTERS REQUIRE VACUUM. THEY ARE RATED TO PERFORM AT 20" OF VACUUM. 20" IS MULTIPLIED TIMES THE SQUARE INCHES OF DIAPHRAGM SURFACE AREA. ANY LOWER VACUUM DROPS THE POWER OUTPUT ACCORDINGLY. AT 15" YOUR POWER IS CUT IN HALF, AT 10" THERE IS NO POWER ASSIST BECAUSE OF THE PEDAL RATIO CHANGE. HOW MUCH VACUUM DO YOU REALLY HAVE, IN GEAR, UNDER BOOST CONDITIONS? LESS THAN 10" I WOULD SAY. WE HAVE DONE THE GN VACUUM BOOSTER CONVERSIONS IN OUR OWN SHOP. THE CUSTOMERS WERE NEVER SATISFIED. WE REBUILT MANY P/M'S THEY ARE REBUILDABLE UNTIL IT COMES TO THE PUMP ASSY. THEY ARE CRIMPED AND NO PARTS TO REPAIR THEM. OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE P/M OR THE VACUUM BOOSTER, OR THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THIS FORUM. WE HAVE A POWER BRAKE TEST BENCH, AND HAVE TESTED ALL THESE SYSTEMS. THE HYDROBOOST WINS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THE 83-85 T TYPE OWNERS COMPLAINING ON THIS SITE THAT THEY DON'T WORK. MANY ARE ORIGINALS, STILL WORKING. WE ARE THE ONLY COMPANY OUTSIDE OF THE AUTOMAKERS WITH A DIRECT CONTRACT WITH BOSCH, THE SUCCESSOR TO BENDIX FOR THE H/B. BOSCH CHECKED US OUT. THEY FEEL WE ARE QUALIFIED. THE H/B'S WE ARE USING NOW FEATURE A LARGER POWER PISTON THAN THE OLD T TYPE'S. THEY PUT OUT EVEN MORE POWER, AND THEY ARE NEW UNITS WITH A WARRANTY BACKED BY BOSCH. THE HYDROBOOST IS POWERED BY THE P/S PUMP. NO VACUUM INVOLVED. TURBOCHARGE THE ENGINE TO THE MOON. IT DOESN'T CARE. ACTUALLY, THE PUMP SPINS FASTER WHEN YOU STAND ON THE BRAKE, AND THE GAS AT THE SAME TIME. THE BRAKES LOCK DOWN TIGHTER WITH MORE PUMP SPEED. THE H/B WILL HOLD THE BRAKES UNTIL THE TRANS MELTS. IS THERE ANYONE IN THE L.A AREA THAT WANTS TO TAKE ON THE CHALLENGE AND ALREADY HAS A VACUUM BOOSTER? WE WILL TAKE THE STOPPING DISTANCE TEST FIRST WITH VACUUM, AND THEN RETEST THE SAME CAR WITH THE HYDROBOOST. ANY MAGAZINE GUYS OUT THERE WILLING TO DO THE TECH STORY? THE HYDROBOOST AT $485.00 PLUS HOSES (NEW) IS A BARGAIN AND WILL OUT STOP ANYTHING OUT THERE. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO CHANGE THE PEDAL. BOTH BAER AND WILWOOD REFER THEIR CUSTOMER TO US TO COMPLETE THEIR SYSTEMS, CALL THEM. OUR HYDROBOOSTS MAKE THEIR SYSTEMS SHINE.
I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT ALL THE RESISTANCE IS ABOUT. WE HAVE BEEN IN THE POWER BRAKE REBUILDING BUSINESS FOR 55 YEARS. WHICH VACUUM (VACUUM NOT VACCUM) BOOSTER DO YOU THINK WE MISSED REBUILDING? WE ACTUALLY TAKE THEM APART, CLEAN AND REPLACE ALL WORN PARTS, AND ON REQUEST MODIFY THE VALVING TO INCREASE THE POWER OUTPUT OF A VACUUM BOOSTER. WE HAVE DONE IT. GOING BACK TO MY EXAMPLE OF THE HANDICAPPED WITH HAND CONTROLS, WE CAN AND HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MODIFY THEIR BRAKE SO THAT JUST THE WEIGHT OF THIER HAND CAN STOP A BIG FULL SIZE VAN AT SPEED. NO, WE DID NOT PUT ON 17" WHEELS AND BAER BRAKES ON BIG VANS TO ACCOMODATE 13" ROTORS. THOSE DID NOT EXIST OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS WE PERFORMED THESE CONVERSIONS. IT WAS ALL DONE WITH PRESSURE. WE CAN LOCK UP THE BRAKES ON ANYTHING WITH ENOUGH PRESSURE, INCLUDING AIR BRAKES. THE POINT BEING, VACUUM BOOSTERS REQUIRE VACUUM. THEY ARE RATED TO PERFORM AT 20" OF VACUUM. 20" IS MULTIPLIED TIMES THE SQUARE INCHES OF DIAPHRAGM SURFACE AREA. ANY LOWER VACUUM DROPS THE POWER OUTPUT ACCORDINGLY. AT 15" YOUR POWER IS CUT IN HALF, AT 10" THERE IS NO POWER ASSIST BECAUSE OF THE PEDAL RATIO CHANGE. HOW MUCH VACUUM DO YOU REALLY HAVE, IN GEAR, UNDER BOOST CONDITIONS? LESS THAN 10" I WOULD SAY. WE HAVE DONE THE GN VACUUM BOOSTER CONVERSIONS IN OUR OWN SHOP. THE CUSTOMERS WERE NEVER SATISFIED. WE REBUILT MANY P/M'S THEY ARE REBUILDABLE UNTIL IT COMES TO THE PUMP ASSY. THEY ARE CRIMPED AND NO PARTS TO REPAIR THEM. OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE P/M OR THE VACUUM BOOSTER, OR THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR THIS FORUM. WE HAVE A POWER BRAKE TEST BENCH, AND HAVE TESTED ALL THESE SYSTEMS. THE HYDROBOOST WINS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THE 83-85 T TYPE OWNERS COMPLAINING ON THIS SITE THAT THEY DON'T WORK. MANY ARE ORIGINALS, STILL WORKING. WE ARE THE ONLY COMPANY OUTSIDE OF THE AUTOMAKERS WITH A DIRECT CONTRACT WITH BOSCH, THE SUCCESSOR TO BENDIX FOR THE H/B. BOSCH CHECKED US OUT. THEY FEEL WE ARE QUALIFIED. THE H/B'S WE ARE USING NOW FEATURE A LARGER POWER PISTON THAN THE OLD T TYPE'S. THEY PUT OUT EVEN MORE POWER, AND THEY ARE NEW UNITS WITH A WARRANTY BACKED BY BOSCH. THE HYDROBOOST IS POWERED BY THE P/S PUMP. NO VACUUM INVOLVED. TURBOCHARGE THE ENGINE TO THE MOON. IT DOESN'T CARE. ACTUALLY, THE PUMP SPINS FASTER WHEN YOU STAND ON THE BRAKE, AND THE GAS AT THE SAME TIME. THE BRAKES LOCK DOWN TIGHTER WITH MORE PUMP SPEED. THE H/B WILL HOLD THE BRAKES UNTIL THE TRANS MELTS. IS THERE ANYONE IN THE L.A AREA THAT WANTS TO TAKE ON THE CHALLENGE AND ALREADY HAS A VACUUM BOOSTER? WE WILL TAKE THE STOPPING DISTANCE TEST FIRST WITH VACUUM, AND THEN RETEST THE SAME CAR WITH THE HYDROBOOST. ANY MAGAZINE GUYS OUT THERE WILLING TO DO THE TECH STORY? THE HYDROBOOST AT $485.00 PLUS HOSES (NEW) IS A BARGAIN AND WILL OUT STOP ANYTHING OUT THERE. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO CHANGE THE PEDAL. BOTH BAER AND WILWOOD REFER THEIR CUSTOMER TO US TO COMPLETE THEIR SYSTEMS, CALL THEM. OUR HYDROBOOSTS MAKE THEIR SYSTEMS SHINE.
Re: BRAKES
Prove it.
Once you have enough pressure to lock up the wheel, anything over that is just a waste. Not to mention in over assisting the system, as you suggest, some *pedal feel* is lost.
$485 for a Master Cylinder, that does nothing but over assists the system, IMO, is just wasting money.
*Resistance?*, to what, just not going brain dead and accepting you 55 years of experience without questioning it?. You've made some claims, now let's see some supporting facts.
I've also spent time with some test benches, and while their handy tools, NOTHING bets bolting things on a car, and then driving it.
In case you missed the memos, the car mags are getting pretty laughable. They accept donated parts, and then evaluate them. When's the last time you saw a part given a BAD review in a HotRod mag?. The worst evaluation I've seen in years, has just not been giving an item a raving review.
Hmm, oddly enough now that YOU mention it, in the Popular Hotrodding Mag, where they installed a Baer System they used a vacuum booster setup. I wonder why that is?.
Prove it.
Once you have enough pressure to lock up the wheel, anything over that is just a waste. Not to mention in over assisting the system, as you suggest, some *pedal feel* is lost.
$485 for a Master Cylinder, that does nothing but over assists the system, IMO, is just wasting money.
*Resistance?*, to what, just not going brain dead and accepting you 55 years of experience without questioning it?. You've made some claims, now let's see some supporting facts.
I've also spent time with some test benches, and while their handy tools, NOTHING bets bolting things on a car, and then driving it.
In case you missed the memos, the car mags are getting pretty laughable. They accept donated parts, and then evaluate them. When's the last time you saw a part given a BAD review in a HotRod mag?. The worst evaluation I've seen in years, has just not been giving an item a raving review.
Hmm, oddly enough now that YOU mention it, in the Popular Hotrodding Mag, where they installed a Baer System they used a vacuum booster setup. I wonder why that is?.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
brake stuff
Well, Sir, you can use anything you want. We have experience with ALL brake systems. including rebuilding ALL of them. Baer buys their vacuum boosters from us! Stainless Steel Brake buys their hydroboosts from us. Baer and Wilwood are thrilled when their customers buy a hydrobost from us, as it makes their brakes work so well. Ask Dutch at Baer, Carl at Wilwood. It's all a personal choice. And Bruce, you did not tell us the name of your company? What do you do?
Well, Sir, you can use anything you want. We have experience with ALL brake systems. including rebuilding ALL of them. Baer buys their vacuum boosters from us! Stainless Steel Brake buys their hydroboosts from us. Baer and Wilwood are thrilled when their customers buy a hydrobost from us, as it makes their brakes work so well. Ask Dutch at Baer, Carl at Wilwood. It's all a personal choice. And Bruce, you did not tell us the name of your company? What do you do?
Re: brake stuff
No company, no commercial ties to anyone. I have no vested interest, in any of this other then finding out the truth.
Things that I consider interesting. Having my GN stop well, is one of them.
It's only after the fact, ie me posting some numbers, that you asked for a GN for testing. IMO, that's outrageous, making claims, that aren't supported with actual in-car testing, applicable to the car being addressed. If you want to make a claim specific to TRs, fine, but without some hard in car data, it'd be suspect to me, and you've now verified that you'll post unverified data.
Trying now to gain some credibility, with well so and so uses them, doesn't mean a thing, IMO.
I consider Brakes an extremely important element of a car. You're inference that just over boosting a system, as an answer, IMO, isn't near close to having the best answer.
BTW, for those with a copy of Door Slammers, on page 148, Dave Morgan, has a chart showing M/C bore diameters, vs Pedal ratios, and pressure generated by various combinations.
No company, no commercial ties to anyone. I have no vested interest, in any of this other then finding out the truth.
Things that I consider interesting. Having my GN stop well, is one of them.
It's only after the fact, ie me posting some numbers, that you asked for a GN for testing. IMO, that's outrageous, making claims, that aren't supported with actual in-car testing, applicable to the car being addressed. If you want to make a claim specific to TRs, fine, but without some hard in car data, it'd be suspect to me, and you've now verified that you'll post unverified data.
Trying now to gain some credibility, with well so and so uses them, doesn't mean a thing, IMO.
I consider Brakes an extremely important element of a car. You're inference that just over boosting a system, as an answer, IMO, isn't near close to having the best answer.
BTW, for those with a copy of Door Slammers, on page 148, Dave Morgan, has a chart showing M/C bore diameters, vs Pedal ratios, and pressure generated by various combinations.
A summary of what I've found:
http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6345
At this stage, I'm now going back to manuals, and have no fears about any engine related failure effecting my braking. No vac worries, no power steering worries, no electrical problem worries, just reliable braking.
There is NO ANSWER, better then having a fully balanced system. Using high line pressures to make up for not having enough brakes to begin with, just means, that when you loss the assist, you lose the brakes.
The more assist a system offers, means the less pedal ratio is used, the lesser the pedal ratio, the more impossible the braking becomes, if the system fails.
http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6345
At this stage, I'm now going back to manuals, and have no fears about any engine related failure effecting my braking. No vac worries, no power steering worries, no electrical problem worries, just reliable braking.
There is NO ANSWER, better then having a fully balanced system. Using high line pressures to make up for not having enough brakes to begin with, just means, that when you loss the assist, you lose the brakes.
The more assist a system offers, means the less pedal ratio is used, the lesser the pedal ratio, the more impossible the braking becomes, if the system fails.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
MANUAL BRAKES
Still on failed brakes? Usually brakes fail from improper servicing. The only time to modify the brakes is when you have exceeded the O.E. parameters, or in the case of Lincoln LS's, Turbo coupe T Birds, and Buick Grand Nationals, their 80's design electric/hydraulic brake pumps wear out. The automakers experimented with these systems not knowing how they would fare 20 years later, nor did they care. it worked for them at the time. You keep refering to brakes failing on what? Race cars? All of the examples you have given, and someone's book you referred to, concern drag race cars, not even related to G.N.'s. I would guess that 95% of G.N.'s on this site are street cars, driven by street drivers. Most real drag cars have trans brakes, and are not subject to most G.N.'s here. To realistically drive this type of high performance STREET CAR everyday, in traffic, (in California it is a chariot race to work everyday) you need immediate brake response. Just driving to work does not heat up the rotors red hot, as in a road race. The rotors are relatively cool on the freeways. (That's why there are holes in the wheels, to spin air around the rotors) IF a G.N. won't stop like you want down at the first stop sign in the morning, cold, then it has nothing to do with rotor heat. The booster is what applies the pressure to the brakes. You say that Buick did not know how to match the brakes on the G.N.? Call them, and ask why. They used the Powermaster from the factory for a reason, instead of vacuum, because they knew the liability of blowing the hose off the check valve, and that may have happened to them at the test track. They knew the vacuum limitations of a 231ci , turbocharged engine. They test this stuff before they sell it to the public. GM only looks at things as to how they will be sued for brake failures. They elected not to install a standard Regal booster and pedal in a heavy car with this potential for speed. In 1986, a vacuum booster only cost GM $15.00 from Delco. Why didn't they use it? Obviously, the Powermaster had to cost them a LOT MORE, and they still used it. The main downfall of the P/M is that it pumps brake fluid under high pressure. Brake fluid is not really a lubricant. Worse, it absorbs moisture from the air, making it corrosive to the system, and the pump. The phenolic vanes, pumping brake fluid, wear out, and the pump can't reach the 2400psi needed to open the gray pressure switch to shut off the 12v motor. That's why the hydroboost is superior. It receives it's pressure from the p/s pump. As long as the engine runs, there is pressure available. The accumulator takes over if you need high pressure stopping after the engine is off. As long as the p/s fluid is kept clean, (it is an oil) the Hydroboost will always perform.
Still on failed brakes? Usually brakes fail from improper servicing. The only time to modify the brakes is when you have exceeded the O.E. parameters, or in the case of Lincoln LS's, Turbo coupe T Birds, and Buick Grand Nationals, their 80's design electric/hydraulic brake pumps wear out. The automakers experimented with these systems not knowing how they would fare 20 years later, nor did they care. it worked for them at the time. You keep refering to brakes failing on what? Race cars? All of the examples you have given, and someone's book you referred to, concern drag race cars, not even related to G.N.'s. I would guess that 95% of G.N.'s on this site are street cars, driven by street drivers. Most real drag cars have trans brakes, and are not subject to most G.N.'s here. To realistically drive this type of high performance STREET CAR everyday, in traffic, (in California it is a chariot race to work everyday) you need immediate brake response. Just driving to work does not heat up the rotors red hot, as in a road race. The rotors are relatively cool on the freeways. (That's why there are holes in the wheels, to spin air around the rotors) IF a G.N. won't stop like you want down at the first stop sign in the morning, cold, then it has nothing to do with rotor heat. The booster is what applies the pressure to the brakes. You say that Buick did not know how to match the brakes on the G.N.? Call them, and ask why. They used the Powermaster from the factory for a reason, instead of vacuum, because they knew the liability of blowing the hose off the check valve, and that may have happened to them at the test track. They knew the vacuum limitations of a 231ci , turbocharged engine. They test this stuff before they sell it to the public. GM only looks at things as to how they will be sued for brake failures. They elected not to install a standard Regal booster and pedal in a heavy car with this potential for speed. In 1986, a vacuum booster only cost GM $15.00 from Delco. Why didn't they use it? Obviously, the Powermaster had to cost them a LOT MORE, and they still used it. The main downfall of the P/M is that it pumps brake fluid under high pressure. Brake fluid is not really a lubricant. Worse, it absorbs moisture from the air, making it corrosive to the system, and the pump. The phenolic vanes, pumping brake fluid, wear out, and the pump can't reach the 2400psi needed to open the gray pressure switch to shut off the 12v motor. That's why the hydroboost is superior. It receives it's pressure from the p/s pump. As long as the engine runs, there is pressure available. The accumulator takes over if you need high pressure stopping after the engine is off. As long as the p/s fluid is kept clean, (it is an oil) the Hydroboost will always perform.
Re: MANUAL BRAKES
1) Darn right, any system as critical as the brakes need to function in a worst case scenario, IMO. BTW, try looking at the newer GM cars, and M/C bores. You might see a trend. Need I repeat, I'm not making money off of posting here, and my motives aren't money related.
2) OK, so if some dies from somthing other then improper servicing, that's OK, in your book?. BTW, might look around, and see that at times folks suffer engine stalls, and with a dead engine, nothing other then manuals will work. Like I said, IMO, brakes need to function in a worst case scenario, how difficult is that for you to understand?. Need I repeat, I'm not making money off of posting here, and my motives aren't money related.
3) Have you noticed how many cars on this site exceed the oem level of performance?. It doesn't take alot to drastically change the performance of a GN. Maybe if you owned one, or spend some serious time working on them, you'd understand the issues here. BTW, have you found a volunteer to TEST your system on, for TR's?.
4) GN's not related to Drag Cars?. You're kidding right?.
5) OK, guess, all you want, I'll stick to real numbers. To include 80->0, and 70->0 stopping distances.
6) I would hope the brakes are relatively cool when not being applied, that would kinda seem obvious.
With your inference of immediate response, do you have an data to infer, your system is better?. Please hard data to support your inference.
7) What are you talking about?. That remark is almost comical.
8) Show me where I said Buick didn't know what they were doing. Misquoting me to make your point, just makes you look silly.
9) Got a phone number?. BTW, why did Pontiac use Vac Brakes on the 89 TTA?. Maybe you ought to call Pontiac and ask them, why.
10) You're the one pretending to know what Buick, Pontiac, think, please tell us, and supply a phone number to someone at GM that will verify your allegations.
IMO, until you have some solid numbers to support your claims, your just trying to pass off your opinions as fact.
It's almost to the stage that I wouldn't believe any numbers you would post. If you want to discuss matters, that means using data, and facts, not opinion, and inferences.
80->0, in ~170', fact.
BTW, I also happen to have a witness to the fact.
Now, with manuals, there are no ties to the engine. If the engine stalls, I have 100% braking. 80->0 in ~170', fact.
1) Darn right, any system as critical as the brakes need to function in a worst case scenario, IMO. BTW, try looking at the newer GM cars, and M/C bores. You might see a trend. Need I repeat, I'm not making money off of posting here, and my motives aren't money related.
2) OK, so if some dies from somthing other then improper servicing, that's OK, in your book?. BTW, might look around, and see that at times folks suffer engine stalls, and with a dead engine, nothing other then manuals will work. Like I said, IMO, brakes need to function in a worst case scenario, how difficult is that for you to understand?. Need I repeat, I'm not making money off of posting here, and my motives aren't money related.
3) Have you noticed how many cars on this site exceed the oem level of performance?. It doesn't take alot to drastically change the performance of a GN. Maybe if you owned one, or spend some serious time working on them, you'd understand the issues here. BTW, have you found a volunteer to TEST your system on, for TR's?.
4) GN's not related to Drag Cars?. You're kidding right?.
5) OK, guess, all you want, I'll stick to real numbers. To include 80->0, and 70->0 stopping distances.
6) I would hope the brakes are relatively cool when not being applied, that would kinda seem obvious.
With your inference of immediate response, do you have an data to infer, your system is better?. Please hard data to support your inference.
7) What are you talking about?. That remark is almost comical.
8) Show me where I said Buick didn't know what they were doing. Misquoting me to make your point, just makes you look silly.
9) Got a phone number?. BTW, why did Pontiac use Vac Brakes on the 89 TTA?. Maybe you ought to call Pontiac and ask them, why.
10) You're the one pretending to know what Buick, Pontiac, think, please tell us, and supply a phone number to someone at GM that will verify your allegations.
IMO, until you have some solid numbers to support your claims, your just trying to pass off your opinions as fact.
It's almost to the stage that I wouldn't believe any numbers you would post. If you want to discuss matters, that means using data, and facts, not opinion, and inferences.
80->0, in ~170', fact.
BTW, I also happen to have a witness to the fact.
Now, with manuals, there are no ties to the engine. If the engine stalls, I have 100% braking. 80->0 in ~170', fact.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
manual brakes
PLEASE, PLEASE, RUN MANUAL BRAKES ON YOUR CAR, NO ONE ELSE DOES. There has not been a car produced by ANY automaker with manual brakes in 33 years. Power brakes became standard with disc brakes at GM in 1973. If your car is the fastest drag race car in the U.S., you win. Manual brakes is like flying a 747 with a tiller. yeah, it might work, but who wants to? Disc brakes need double the volume, and double the line pressure over drum brakes. That is in any book on brakes. It is the reason proportioning valves exist. The 1200 psi needed for disc would over power the drum brakes, which are designed to lock at 600psi. If you like to leg up 1200 psi every time you stop, great. For some reason, you are taking this personal. It's not. I don't even know who you are, or what business you are in. I have presented all the types of brake systems usable in relation to street driven, or occasional drag strip runs, as they relate to G.N.'s. Vacuum does this. Powermaster does that, Hydroboost does it this way, and manual brakes do it another way. AS IT RELATES TO BUICK GRAND NATIONALS. Anybody here can test all 4 systems out to their heart's content. I work with GM, Baer, and Wilwood. They refer people here. If manual brakes work better than power, try to stop a 20,000 lb truck with the booster disconnected, down a mountain.....
PLEASE, PLEASE, RUN MANUAL BRAKES ON YOUR CAR, NO ONE ELSE DOES. There has not been a car produced by ANY automaker with manual brakes in 33 years. Power brakes became standard with disc brakes at GM in 1973. If your car is the fastest drag race car in the U.S., you win. Manual brakes is like flying a 747 with a tiller. yeah, it might work, but who wants to? Disc brakes need double the volume, and double the line pressure over drum brakes. That is in any book on brakes. It is the reason proportioning valves exist. The 1200 psi needed for disc would over power the drum brakes, which are designed to lock at 600psi. If you like to leg up 1200 psi every time you stop, great. For some reason, you are taking this personal. It's not. I don't even know who you are, or what business you are in. I have presented all the types of brake systems usable in relation to street driven, or occasional drag strip runs, as they relate to G.N.'s. Vacuum does this. Powermaster does that, Hydroboost does it this way, and manual brakes do it another way. AS IT RELATES TO BUICK GRAND NATIONALS. Anybody here can test all 4 systems out to their heart's content. I work with GM, Baer, and Wilwood. They refer people here. If manual brakes work better than power, try to stop a 20,000 lb truck with the booster disconnected, down a mountain.....
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
http://*********************/forums/showthread.php?t=31964&highlight=wheel+cylinders
Your not allowed to call names or you get banned, so look at this silly $hit.
Your not allowed to call names or you get banned, so look at this silly $hit.
