Actually, I asked Jack about that years ago. I ragged on him for not using the Power Master. Jokingly of course. Anyone can use what ever system they want as far as I'm concerned. Jack's reason? The wiring harness was a custom one that didn't have provisions for the Power Master, otherwise, he would have put it in. Wether he feels the same way now or not, I don't know, but that is what he told me before.
how many people are using vacuum brakes?
- Thread starter the wrath
- Start date
Actually, I asked Jack about that years ago. I ragged on him for not using the Power Master. Jokingly of course. Anyone can use what ever system they want as far as I'm concerned. Jack's reason? The wiring harness was a custom one that didn't have provisions for the Power Master, otherwise, he would have put it in. Wether he feels the same way now or not, I don't know, but that is what he told me before.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
C0NRAD
WOW! CONRAD CARTER. I REMEMBER THAT NAME. Seems like we rebuilt your hydroboost 10 years ago. We have been rebuilding the powermaster since those cars came out. They wer trouble when the cars were almost new. We even were modifying the control valve inside to create more power for the booster. In the mid 80's we were a Delco distributor, and a brake conversion specialist for General Motors. They sent us new vehicles to modify for the utility companies. They also sent us new S10's that had manual brakes to add on power brakes. That's when we learned that the manual brake S10's had a 7/8" rear wheel cyl. The factory power brake S10's had the 3/4" When adding power brakes, the big wheel cyls on an empty p.u. would just lock those little tires. We had to downsize the wheel cyls when we added p.b. (vacuum) to new s10's We used the take-off 7/8" cyls on new G.N.s in 87. Also in 1987, We were commisioned by Dick Guldstrand to build a 200 mph brake system for a new (14 mile) G.N. for the jewelry merchant Bulgari. He loves all Buicks. We converted the front brakes to the Impala big brake, and El Dorado rears. Obviousy, with this much caliper piston volume, we needed a large bore master, and a hydroboost to push up the pressure. The engine was sent to Duttweiler. the trans, I think to Art Carr. The rear end was changed to a 3.08 gear, to get the mph. oddly, the 3.08 gear made the turbo work harder, and pushed you back in the seat harder than the 3.42. The customer was pleased. This was in 1987.
WOW! CONRAD CARTER. I REMEMBER THAT NAME. Seems like we rebuilt your hydroboost 10 years ago. We have been rebuilding the powermaster since those cars came out. They wer trouble when the cars were almost new. We even were modifying the control valve inside to create more power for the booster. In the mid 80's we were a Delco distributor, and a brake conversion specialist for General Motors. They sent us new vehicles to modify for the utility companies. They also sent us new S10's that had manual brakes to add on power brakes. That's when we learned that the manual brake S10's had a 7/8" rear wheel cyl. The factory power brake S10's had the 3/4" When adding power brakes, the big wheel cyls on an empty p.u. would just lock those little tires. We had to downsize the wheel cyls when we added p.b. (vacuum) to new s10's We used the take-off 7/8" cyls on new G.N.s in 87. Also in 1987, We were commisioned by Dick Guldstrand to build a 200 mph brake system for a new (14 mile) G.N. for the jewelry merchant Bulgari. He loves all Buicks. We converted the front brakes to the Impala big brake, and El Dorado rears. Obviousy, with this much caliper piston volume, we needed a large bore master, and a hydroboost to push up the pressure. The engine was sent to Duttweiler. the trans, I think to Art Carr. The rear end was changed to a 3.08 gear, to get the mph. oddly, the 3.08 gear made the turbo work harder, and pushed you back in the seat harder than the 3.42. The customer was pleased. This was in 1987.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
v belt
Conrad, you can use the newer serpentine pump drive with the hydroboost. The pressure hose goes from the pump to the engine side of the h/b, then fender side of the h/b goes to the box pressure port. You have a return from the box and a return from the h/b. You can tee the returns together at the reservoir and GO! We are installing these on 572 cars, blown big blocks, street rods Hemi cars, Suburbans, Tahoes, F350's, (diesel or gas) Recently, a 57 Chevy 2 ton Truck, a GTO, a Rolls Royce, and even a Facel Vega! We just make up stainless braided hose to the pump and box, and go. Conrad, if you need to call us. my 800 # is 504 1060. Bob
Conrad, you can use the newer serpentine pump drive with the hydroboost. The pressure hose goes from the pump to the engine side of the h/b, then fender side of the h/b goes to the box pressure port. You have a return from the box and a return from the h/b. You can tee the returns together at the reservoir and GO! We are installing these on 572 cars, blown big blocks, street rods Hemi cars, Suburbans, Tahoes, F350's, (diesel or gas) Recently, a 57 Chevy 2 ton Truck, a GTO, a Rolls Royce, and even a Facel Vega! We just make up stainless braided hose to the pump and box, and go. Conrad, if you need to call us. my 800 # is 504 1060. Bob
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
conversions
O.K., One more thing. The hydroboost uses the same pedal as the Powermaster. There is no need to change it. The angle is the same, But Vacuum boosters are on center of the firewall hole. The Powermaster and the H/B angle up to a higher ratio on the pedal
O.K., One more thing. The hydroboost uses the same pedal as the Powermaster. There is no need to change it. The angle is the same, But Vacuum boosters are on center of the firewall hole. The Powermaster and the H/B angle up to a higher ratio on the pedal
Re: Re: HYDROBOOST SOME MORE
No need to, if the brakes are sized properly. Covering one fault with another, IMO, just doesn't make sense.
My 3/4t truck with it's old huge rear drum front disc brakes, with a vacuum booster will also shut down remarkably well. Again, it's about mass and the ability to absorb large amounts of heat. Unlike some of the newer trucks with their 4 wheel discs, that while they stop well, consume the brakes up completely. ie Needing rotors as well as pads when the time comes.
BTW, your still ignoring the fact that with the higher assist when it fails you can have little to no effective braking.
No need to, if the brakes are sized properly. Covering one fault with another, IMO, just doesn't make sense.
My 3/4t truck with it's old huge rear drum front disc brakes, with a vacuum booster will also shut down remarkably well. Again, it's about mass and the ability to absorb large amounts of heat. Unlike some of the newer trucks with their 4 wheel discs, that while they stop well, consume the brakes up completely. ie Needing rotors as well as pads when the time comes.
BTW, your still ignoring the fact that with the higher assist when it fails you can have little to no effective braking.
Re: Re: Re: HYDROBOOST SOME MORE
We're not talking about your truck, the discusion is about Buick T/R's (apples and oranges?).
I've really only had one complete failure on either of my PM's over the last 18 years. Was it scary? at first, yes. But I was still able to stop the car.
And I was also smart enough to get the car home right away to fix the problem, so as not to be exposed to any unecessary stopping scenarios.
Most of the PM's problems over the years have been cause by mis use, abuse, and neglect. I stopped counting years ago the number of people that will drive these cars around with the brake light blinking at them, and do it for weeks or months and not give it a thought. And when the system finally fails they're "johnny on the spot" to lay blame on the braking system.
Couldn't possibly be the owner's fault, right?
BTW, I don't consider "fixing" the rears for more clamping force as being "covering one fault with another". I consider it to be just another racer's trick to "gitt'r done".
I didn't want the expense of a trans brake, but still wanted to be able to launch with sufficient boost(15-20) to get the 60's down.
But we all have owr own means to an end. Most folks on here don't really race all that much and a good vacuum brake system is more than adequate for a daily driver, show car etc.
Some of us have other agendas, so let's just agree to leave it at that. No sense beating a dead horse. You'll not convince me, and I'm not going to convince ya'll.
We're not talking about your truck, the discusion is about Buick T/R's (apples and oranges?).
I've really only had one complete failure on either of my PM's over the last 18 years. Was it scary? at first, yes. But I was still able to stop the car.
And I was also smart enough to get the car home right away to fix the problem, so as not to be exposed to any unecessary stopping scenarios.
Most of the PM's problems over the years have been cause by mis use, abuse, and neglect. I stopped counting years ago the number of people that will drive these cars around with the brake light blinking at them, and do it for weeks or months and not give it a thought. And when the system finally fails they're "johnny on the spot" to lay blame on the braking system.
Couldn't possibly be the owner's fault, right?
BTW, I don't consider "fixing" the rears for more clamping force as being "covering one fault with another". I consider it to be just another racer's trick to "gitt'r done".
I didn't want the expense of a trans brake, but still wanted to be able to launch with sufficient boost(15-20) to get the 60's down.
But we all have owr own means to an end. Most folks on here don't really race all that much and a good vacuum brake system is more than adequate for a daily driver, show car etc.
Some of us have other agendas, so let's just agree to leave it at that. No sense beating a dead horse. You'll not convince me, and I'm not going to convince ya'll.
bttwracing86T
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE 6!
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
just converted need a lil help
i got a valve on order but what happeneds is if i try to hold boost on the line it pushs through. but i did a quick test to see what happened when i got rpms up high quicker like a burn out for a second the car lunged forward the stoped and boiled the back tires and just stayed where it was. any ideas i am planing on running it at the track next friday night. ill be running of MT drag slicks but any idea on what to do with this brake you think its the valve???
thanks
tim
i got a valve on order but what happeneds is if i try to hold boost on the line it pushs through. but i did a quick test to see what happened when i got rpms up high quicker like a burn out for a second the car lunged forward the stoped and boiled the back tires and just stayed where it was. any ideas i am planing on running it at the track next friday night. ill be running of MT drag slicks but any idea on what to do with this brake you think its the valve???
thanks
tim
Re: Re: Re: Re: HYDROBOOST SOME MORE
Dugh, you brought up truck brakes!.
Hey that's nice, but some of us actually take trips in our TRs, so just limping home is a big deal when it's a 1,000 miles.
Self inflicted failures or not when a PM fails it can be in ONE APPLICATION, and finding that out at 65 to avoid an accident, IMO, isn't the place to HOPE the brakes will work.
Nice seeing the *more then adequate for daily driver, show car* inference.
Brakes should be designed so that in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, they'll still function. Who knows, with time, you might change your mind.
BTW, IMO, Manuals are still the best set-up, it's only due to pedal geometry, that, IMO, that makes them less then perfect.
Originally posted by TurboDave
We're not talking about your truck, the discusion is about Buick T/R's (apples and oranges?).
I've really only had one complete failure on either of my PM's over the last 18 years. Was it scary? at first, yes. But I was still able to stop the car.
And I was also smart enough to get the car home right away to fix the problem, so as not to be exposed to any unecessary stopping scenarios.
Most of the PM's problems over the years have been cause by mis use, abuse, and neglect. I stopped counting years ago the number of people that will drive these cars around with the brake light blinking at them, and do it for weeks or months and not give it a thought. And when the system finally fails they're "johnny on the spot" to lay blame on the braking system.
Couldn't possibly be the owner's fault, right?
BTW, I don't consider "fixing" the rears for more clamping force as being "covering one fault with another". I consider it to be just another racer's trick to "gitt'r done".
I didn't want the expense of a trans brake, but still wanted to be able to launch with sufficient boost(15-20) to get the 60's down.
But we all have owr own means to an end. Most folks on here don't really race all that much and a good vacuum brake system is more than adequate for a daily driver, show car etc.
Some of us have other agendas, so let's just agree to leave it at that. No sense beating a dead horse. You'll not convince me, and I'm not going to convince ya'll.
Dugh, you brought up truck brakes!.
Hey that's nice, but some of us actually take trips in our TRs, so just limping home is a big deal when it's a 1,000 miles.
Self inflicted failures or not when a PM fails it can be in ONE APPLICATION, and finding that out at 65 to avoid an accident, IMO, isn't the place to HOPE the brakes will work.
Nice seeing the *more then adequate for daily driver, show car* inference.
Brakes should be designed so that in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, they'll still function. Who knows, with time, you might change your mind.
BTW, IMO, Manuals are still the best set-up, it's only due to pedal geometry, that, IMO, that makes them less then perfect.
mazdatech78
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
This is just my 2 cents. My 87 has vacuum brakes. It also has rear discs from a 95 Trans Am. This thing stops on a dime. I dont know what boost it will hold on the line tho. Will let ya know when I go to the track next week. My 83 has the original powermaster setup. It stops halfway decent but I really dont trust it. Being a carbed POS it likes to stall sometimes coming to a stop. Talk about having no brakes. Its definetly a scary moment!
James
James
mazdatech78
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
I bought the car with them already installed. Im doing some pre race inspection type junk early next week so when I have it up in the air I will see exactly how it is set up and send you a PM.
James
James
bttwracing86T
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE 6!
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
any one see my post
please tell me what you think
please tell me what you think
bttwracing86T
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE 6!
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2001
any one see my post
please tell me what you think
please tell me what you think
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
attention vacuum brake users
The hydroboost debate continues. Please read the forum. "Attention vacuum brake users." The hydroboost was actually factory installed by Buick on the 83-85 t types. It worked like a champ. We don't know why they switched to the Powermaster in 86-87, another than it was cheaper for them.
The hydroboost debate continues. Please read the forum. "Attention vacuum brake users." The hydroboost was actually factory installed by Buick on the 83-85 t types. It worked like a champ. We don't know why they switched to the Powermaster in 86-87, another than it was cheaper for them.
POWERBRAKEBOB
Banned
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
brake stuff
Thanks, Conrad
Thanks, Conrad
Depends on who you talk to. There are many success stories on the three sides and GM has done both as well. early GN's had Hydraboost (powered by power steering pump), late GN's had Powermaster (powered by internal motor) and 87 TTA had vacuum.
I have vacuum system off a NA 87 Regal and have had no problems. Of course, as you noted, I'm not trying to build 10 or 20 pounds of boost on the line. I do have 12" B-car front disk and Baer 11" (or 12"...I cannot remember which) rear disk.
So, it is pretty much up to you as to what you want on your car.
Conrad Carter
Mechanical Engineer
Albemarle, NC
I have vacuum system off a NA 87 Regal and have had no problems. Of course, as you noted, I'm not trying to build 10 or 20 pounds of boost on the line. I do have 12" B-car front disk and Baer 11" (or 12"...I cannot remember which) rear disk.
So, it is pretty much up to you as to what you want on your car.
Conrad Carter
Mechanical Engineer
Albemarle, NC
Red Regal T
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Holding boost at the line is way down on my priority list. There's been plenty of posts on this subject and plenty of guys claim to hold 10 lbs of boost and more with vacuum brakes, so it is achievable. If this is a priority for anyone, do what ya gotta do. I'm about dependable brakes that are cheap to maintain. End of story.
