how many people are using vacuum brakes?

[dentmasters01]

Instead of everyone sitting here arguing on the board about what will work or what won't work, I'll volunteer to put it on my car and show everyone what the out come is. Period.
Powerbrakebob, get incontact with me and lets make the arrangements. 4dgg@comcast.net
to be continued...........

 

[GNVYUS 1]

First off I think we need to give Bob a little slack here, he is trying offer us another braking option and is definitely not a brake newbie. By the way, the Typhoon is the heaviest of the Turbo Vehicles with the vacuum set up

Second off I doubt you guys are going to find a magazine to do another brake comparison for us so your only shot is to get GM HighTech to do another conversion and see if it does better than the Vacuum set up they have on the car. Otherwise you are going to have to do this with a solid member of this board and with a witness to verify the outcome.

Here is what I have so far as I am contemplating a brake upgrade. Hydratech's HydroBooster is $680 with everything, Bob I could not find a link on your site but I think someone here said your set up was low $600's with the lines, PowerMasters are now $350 and a new vacuum kit off the 87 NA Regal is $190 and then you need the pedal.

www.hydratechbraking.com/products/a_g_body/

www.powerbrakeservices.com/

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB...MP+CONNECTED+UNDERNEATH+RESERVOIR)&PageSync=1

www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...=15559645&prmenbr=5806&usrcommgrpid=103705271

 

[rodman99999]

Yes it does. The PM is an electro-hydraulic unit if I'm not mistaken. The Hydroboost is driven by the steering pump. So in essence to change over, you need to scrap the electro-pump and change it over to steering fluid run. Check out the website. Formulate your own opinion. The 84-85 GN's utilized the hydroboost setup. Can hold more boost at the line with the hydroboost I think due to it running off the steering pump rather than a vac setup. I like my vac brakes

How many '85 GNs were built with Hydroboosts? I just sold mine('85 GN) after five years. It was equipped with a Powermaster setup(appeared factory in mounting, wiring, etc.). I bought a NOS Powermaster and an extra NOS accumulator awhile back, and I'm sitting on them. Whenever my present Powermaster gets limp, I'm selling them, and either go vacuum or Hydroboost. By then I ought to be able to make a couple bucks on my investment. Is there a site that I can go to that shows the procedure for a Hydroboost conversion? Oh- about that GMHTP vacuum conversion and it's attendant figures: Read it again! They mention in there that the Powermaster was on it's last legs, so the comparison wasn't really fair. I'm not knocking vacuum setups(I'm still looking at them seriously), just trying to be balanced about all this(as GMHTP was in mentioning that fact). That's also a good article to look at for anyone worried about losing vacuum. They installed an auxilliary vacuum pump that switched on below a certain vacuum level. As I recall: the company that sold the conversion, also sells the pump. It wasn't cheap- but good insurance(I suppose).

 

[Robbie-87plz]

Look back a few posts I think someone already mentioned the websites, you can get an idea from there. The reason I didn't go HB was financial, otherwise I'd be there. But don't forget, when it sh*ts itself, the accumulator is good for 3 stops, each getting progressively worse (longer.)

 

[bruce]

First off I think we need to give Bob a little slack here, he is trying offer us another braking option and is definitely not a brake newbie.

Maybe you ought to reread what he was claiming?. His original premise was that just by going to a Hydroboost setup, and it's increase in line pressure, is what made it superior. That would only be true in a system in which the rotors, calpiers, and pads were over-designed for the application, and in the case of the TR, it's not the case. Raising the line pressure in a TR is only going to make the system more prone to fade, with the higher clamping forces, creating more heat, in a system that already is *heat mass* limited.

Not to mention that he was expressing opinions as fact. No where did he mention any facts relavent to TRs.

Maybe, you can afford to base your desicions on opinons, but for the price of his kit, I'd sure want some real information.

While not a newbie, that doesn't excuse him from his obvious tie to his product. Lots of folks honestly think they sell the best products available, but at times have been very wrong.

Have you read Corky Bell's *max Boost*?. He's another *non-newbie* that's selling a product that he thinks is the best. With that in mind, play close attention to what he has to say about alky/ water injection.

 

[bruce]

They mention in there that the Powermaster was on it's last legs, so the comparison wasn't really fair.
That's also a good article to look at for anyone worried about losing vacuum. They installed an auxilliary vacuum pump that switched on below a certain vacuum level. As I recall: the company that sold the conversion, also sells the pump. It wasn't cheap- but good insurance(I suppose).

Can you explain what they really meant?, it's been my experience that a PM works are it doesn't. The pump or accumulator either work or they don't.

In the article they never tried stopping the TR eith either system in a full failure mode, either. In which case the PM leaves the car with almost no brakes, while the Vac system will take alot of leg work, but it will stop the car much better, since the vac assist is less then what he PM or hydroboost affords.

At least the article offered some real numbers, rather then just opinion.

 

[Cablebandit]

Well i just ordered this for my 2000 trans am. I will tell you all if it holds more boost on the line. I can try to do a brake distance test with my gtech rr but dunno if I can get you guys accurate enuff results. my main concern is holding boost at the line as I feel my car stops fine normally. Should be in within 2 weeks.

 

[bruce]

Well i just ordered this for my 2000 trans am. I will tell you all if it holds more boost on the line. I can try to do a brake distance test with my gtech rr but dunno if I can get you guys accurate enuff results. my main concern is holding boost at the line as I feel my car stops fine normally. Should be in within 2 weeks.

How much was it?.
After reading some of your other postings, I'm wondering what else might be going on, since I'm running the same brakes as you, without your problems, with a vacuum set-up. My only mod from oem is the Trofeo M/C, and no ABS, or combination valve.

 

[buickrob]

I just converted yesterday and can hold 8lbs of boost without even mashing the pedal too hard. The car stops better, no annoying buzzing and vacuum reliability. I love them!

 

[bruce]

I just converted yesterday and can hold 8lbs of boost without even mashing the pedal too hard. The car stops better, no annoying buzzing and vacuum reliability. I love them!

How much did you spend?.

 

[Ken Cunningham]

OK, you can add me to the list of satisfied vacuum brake converters.

My 87 T is a daily driver, and accumulators only last about 2 years under my usage. Plus I have had my brake fuse blow on me; nothing like a sudden and unexpected hard pedal to pucker your factor. Who would design a brake system that depends on a FUSE??!! A fuse is designed to blow.

So I bought and installed the Red Regal T conversion. Although I did the install myself, I had the brakes bled by a local brake shop to clear out all the old brake fluid.

Haven't tested the boost hold yet, but frankly I don't do full-boost banzai launches too much anymore. I did test the brakes in full panic mode on a side street and got a good lockup with tire smoke and sliding.

My guess is that over time this conversion will look even better and better to me as I can stop thinking about the stupid brakes all the time.

 

[87moonroof]

brakes

I have been reading the replies and did not notice any body telling you to change the accumulator ball sounds like thats your problem as far as vacuuum brakes with s 10 wheel cyl.a 3200 converter e brake down and line lock on I can hold 15 pounds of boost

 

[FBSideoiler427]

.......hydroboost users - please reply !!!!!!!..............

I need to switch to a braking alternative as my PM is approacing 100K miles. I'm not kind on brakes and will not wait for helpless situations to partake in, as some of the unfortunate posters.

 

[Red Regal T]

Hydroboost brakes probably work just fine. A lot of the bickering here is because powerbrakeBob tends to exaggerate and put out incorrect information. He doesn't have his facts straight when commenting on other applications, so he just makes it up. Don't make me go back and point them all out, look for yourselves. Here's an example....

We offer a NEW HYDROBOOST, WITH NEW MASTER, (EASILY REPLACEABLE) FOR $485.00., PLUS HOSES. This is less than a used vacuum booster, and a 12v vacuum pump, with triple the POWER!

It's like this........you can do vacuum.......a proven comodity, for easily a quarter of the price of hydroboost and do the whole changeover yourself in a couple hours. That's not to say don't go for the hydroboost. Hydroboost is stock on many hot air TRs. But, maybe it's just me, but I'd have a problem dealing with someone who fibs a lot.

You all know Bruce. Bruce is real knowledgeable about our cars, has owned his TR for many years, and has no axe to grind. He's given a lot of accurate information about vacuum brakes and how to make them better than just stock. Check out what he says.

 

[bruce]

.......hydroboost users - please reply !!!!!!!..............

I need to switch to a braking alternative as my PM is approacing 100K miles. I'm not kind on brakes and will not wait for helpless situations to partake in, as some of the unfortunate posters.

You'd probably do better starting a new thread asking for users only. I'm sure by now, a fair number of folks are ignoring this thread.

 

[Red Regal T]

You'd probably do better starting a new thread asking for users only. I'm sure by now, a fair number of folks are ignoring this thread.

You mean I wrote all that for nothin'?

 

[bruce]

Would you believe there's a magazine called *Brake and Front End*?.
Guess what's highlighted in the Mar 05 issue?.
Yep, the Hydroboost system.

Starting on Pg 42, the explain the basics of how they work, and some of the failure modes, diagnostics, and maintance.
Just to quote some of the highlights:

Under failure modes,
Noise Problems
Slow or incomplete return of the brake pedal
Over sensitive brakes
Self Applying Brakes

If fluid pressure is lost you have 1 application with 70% assist,
the second 30-40%
and the third 10%
These numbers are approximates.

Under Pedal Feel, it notes that the pedal will feel different then that of a vacuum boosted car.

Under service, it says they are not serviceable in the field. If the unit is not working properly it must be replaced.

And they mention to be sure to periodically flush the system, and purge the accumulator in the process.

IMO:
While they are in use by oems, excuse me if I'm not impressed with a failure mode that includes, *Self Applying Brakes*.
Not to mention having a problem and having to park the car. Most Parts houses have G-Body master cylinders in stock, and so far I don't recall not seeing at least one G-Body at any recycling center so if not overnight, a cruise to the local Recycling center and you could score a booster, if needed.

Not to mention that if you wind up relying on the higher assist possible with a HB, then if it fails, you'll be in a worse situation then even using a PM.

 

[Cablebandit]

Powerbrakebob had my info...lost most of it ...sent me an email back asking for me to call back. I sent them 2 emails with my number and never heard from them. i contacted hydroboost.com and ordered basically the same thing. total cost shipped was 619.00 easy install...did stop better but only held 200 more rpms for me. The dealbreaker was the brake release time. It was very slow and definitely would not work in my car at the track. They said ship it back, give me a refund and no hard feelings. Product didnt work for me but they handled my situation with 1st class service. I have since gone to no abs and an adjustable proprtioning valve with an ebrake launch. This seems to be the ticket for me but broke a sprag on my 2nd launch Now i am awaiting my new tranny...newly restalled precision converter and will be back out there! Something was wrong in my hydroboost setup as it took most of an intersection for the brakes to release...prolly my abs screwing around but I doubt this is normal result or they wouldnt be in business.

 

[bruce]

The dealbreaker was the brake release time.

Almost sounds like the self-applying brake problem mentioned in the article I quoted.

Oddly enough the current applications, oem wise, per the article, are a bunch of trucks, and late Mustangs. I think there's some joke material in there somewhere...

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

 

[Cablebandit]

to add to my post above...the car did stop MUCH better with the hydroboost vs my vacuum setup. It seems my abs was the problem with the brakes not releasing properly.....at least they didnt give me any BS about returning...he said if it doesnt work like we say, send it back and get your money back...what more can you ask for I have since removed my abs and wish I had done this first before returning the hydroboost.....bet i'd be in the 1.4s by now.