Don't Read UNLESS You Want to be Pissed Off

[RealFastV6]

Originally posted by TT/A1233
Interesting articles. One says: however the 4the Amendment doesn't have any such provision which makes one wonder about the writer. It says exactly:
Does anyone read a passage regarding "knock and announce" in the 4th Amendment?

This is an entertaining thread....

I for 1 would personally find having my door kicked down and a gun put to my head before so much as seeing a warrant unreasonable. It's possible that other people felt this way too, which leads us to that "Knock and Announce" protocol.

Making exceptions to this for drug cases and such where evidence would be destroyed would constitute a reason, and therefore make it reasonable.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[TurboJunky]

Originally posted by RealFastV6
I for 1 would personally find having my door kicked down and a gun put to my head before so much as seeing a warrant unreasonable. It's possible that other people felt this way too, which leads us to that "Knock and Announce" protocol.

Making exceptions to this for drug cases and such where evidence would be destroyed would constitute a reason, and therefore make it reasonable.

I was pointing out inconsistinsies between the article and the real deal. Knock and announce is necessary except under certain circumstances. Some (not all) may be drug houses where evidence could and would invariably be quickly destroyed, homes that are simply too dangerous to wait at the door etc. If you live in an upscale neighborhood with no prior history and are stealing satellite TV I don't think the TV cops would come busting in your house at 4am with MP5's ordering everone to the ground. That's not "reasonable and prudent".

 

[ThikStik]

More chaos will ensue as America grows and becomes ever more diverse. Litigations of all sort will grow as everything will be about race, gender, religion, etc. Borders are not enforced, one language is not encouraged, patriotism is forsaken. The prisons will continue to burgeon. Fatherlessness will create government dependant generations. And stupid and invasive laws will pestor us all.
Pandering to foreigners like this woman belittles the morale of the common indiginous American as they pay their taxes and try to be good citizens. But we wouldnt want to force OUR culture upon her. See what Im saying? It is wrong for us to have a culture of our own. We are fast becoming a nation of all cultures but one which isnt allowed to have a culture of its own. More of this crap is coming down the pipe. This case shouldnt even have passed summary judgement.

 

[sr71gn]

bama gn hit the nail on the head when he said in the future it could be a law that people be implanted with computer chips that make them tell the truth-or to track their every movement

why does this not bother anyone? everyone thinks it cant happen-well it can and probably will the way things are going

the constitution gave us rights that cant be taken away - but they are eroded more and more every day

laws are made by the legislature, okd by the executive and ruled on constitutionally by the courts-

who are your senators and house members in your state?

they are supposed to be your representatives but are they really doing that or just going along with the biggest donors to their personal funds

look at the things that have happened in the recent past with the tremendous rape of the public by the utility companies - the billions stolen by the big corporations like enron

big money controls the government- no one can run for political office without huge dollars behind them- so how can these people really represent your interests

i never dreamed they could ever get away with making people wear a seatbelt- in the beginning, when the law was promoted and passed by the above mentioned legislature members, they said officers could never use a seatbelt violation as the reason for stopping a driver-- now what has happened- it would be funny if it wasnt so serious- recently when they announced we were on a high terror alert nation wide and law enforcement agencies would be taking appropriate action- what happened?

I live in ohio and you could hardly go a mile on the expressway without seeing an ohio state patrolman sitting and watching-- but do you know what they were watching for? seat belt violators- we had a big propaganda spash on radio and tv about the crackdown on seatbelt law violators- off the expressway on regular county roads they had people stopped all over the place

anyone that has been a police officer knows you can find a violation on anyone driving a car- but all these violations that everyone does everyday are violations of laws passed by the legislature

the point of all this is that we are supposed to have rights according to the constitution but these rights are history when they make laws violating them--

and the right to drive is certainly covered by the constitution- does anyone think the forefathers said the only way we could move freely about and pursue happiness was on foot?did you need a riding licence to ride a horse?

 

[STAGE 2]

Originally posted by sr71gn

and the right to drive is certainly covered by the constitution- does anyone think the forefathers said the only way we could move freely about and pursue happiness was on foot?did you need a riding licence to ride a horse?

While I'm not in the business of making blanket statements I think I could make a great case as to why I'm possibly one of the most conservative, right wing, pro-constructionist people on this board. This is so much the case that I'm going to make it my career.

However, no matter how much I love personal freedom and everything that the constitution grants us, in order to be completely honest and faithful to the principles that this country was founded on, I cannot read into that document what is not there... and the right to drive a car is not there.

Do we have the right to purchase a car, sure. Do we have the right to drive one, yup. Can the government regulate to how it sees fit... absolutely. Unlike the second amendment there is no specific mention of cars in the constitution (for obvious reason). However there is no mention of any other means of transportation as well. Thus there is no protected right to use a car, horse, carriage any time and any way you wish.

Furthermore, since cars and trucks are undoubtedly intertwined with commerce, the government has the specific right to regulate such activity as it sees fit. There is a long string of court cases which backs up the governments ability to impose such regulations.

As a result, if the fed'l gubbermint wants you to stand on your head and say cheese for the picture on your lisence, then you'd better start practicing your balance cause its within their legal rights to do so.

 

[TurboTer]

Originally posted by TT/A1233
I see exactly where you're coming from. I fully support the law abiding citizen being able to purchase and carry a firearm as long as they haven't been criminally insane, have no felony convictions, take and pass a firearm safety course (for obvious reasons) and pass a firearm proficiency exam. This has passed in Michigan recently and the naysayers who claim "chaos" will ensue simply hasn't happened. I feel safer having good citizens carrying firearms for my personal sake.

I feel the average Joe has and excercises a great deal of personal responsibility, we are in fact adults. If you can fight, die and kill for our country then you should be able to have a drink and buy and carry a firearm. There's always exceptions but that's what happenes in a free society. You can't legislate responisibility, but you can legislate accountability.

As far as the photo driver's license, I go back to the premise that ANYONE could use a non-photo driver's license and pass themselves off as you. You must agree with that statement. A photo isn't a Constitutionally protected right, it isn't an "unreasonable search and seizure". I'll use the example that someone smashes into your GN and you exchange info. He/she presents a non-photo driver's license and it proves all the info is false, then what? You don't agree with insurance and opt not to have any...now you're screwed. At least with a photo ID you'll be able to verify the person presenting the ID is actaully the one ON the ID. Law enforcement must have the same ability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a solid advocate of personal rights and freedoms. When I'm working, I always err on the side of caution to protect everyone's Constitutional rights.

Mistakes are made every day, cops are human beings and aren't exempt. No ones perfect. Just think of the people you've worked with, how many were jerks, loudmouths or didn't give a hoot about anything. Departments try to screen out those types but some squeak through. Don't judge everyone by the actions of a few.

I agree with most of your views on guns, except I'm a little more absolute than you are. I certainly oppose any "firearm safty course" or exam. I also think if you someone was convicted of a crime in 1975 (when they were 18) and has been a good boy ever since, then they should still be able to carry. State and local laws vary greatly on guns. Some places, like Washington, DC, it's almost impossible to get a hand gun. Others, like a small town in GA, make it illegal to NOT own a gun. That's a little silly too though. It should be up to the person to decide.

Back to picture licenses...I see what your saying. But suppose you have a twin? Or suppose you just look like someone in the photo? It's pretty easy to pass for someone. Some people don't even look like their own pictures.

 

[NCTyphoon]

What if the wind blowing in her car window blows her veil over her face and she crashes? That veil is a safety hazzard! She can always move to the mideast if she wants to drive. Follow the rules or leave, don't think we'll miss her.

 

[FlyinGN]

getting back to the original reason of this post. Check this out... Here she is unveiled!
scroll down and see what she REALLY is..

http://www.boortz.com/nealznuz.htm

 

[dthrock]

Rights?

Im a little confused by some peoples opinions here. I fail to see how putting your finger prints on a license is a violation of your rights or privacy. Every glass you pick up has your prints on it, not like you dont leave them everywhere you go. If you havent done anything wrong, why should you care if the gov has your prints? You have to be printed to join the US Military, serve as a law inforcement/corrections officer, so should those people who serve and protect our country be able to refuse fingerprinting? Where is the harm? What possible use could the gov come up with to use your fingerprints for besides identifying you in the course of investigation. Im sorry but Im just not important enough for the govt to spend millions of dollars on to find a way to frame me for some obscure crime.

Same thing with registering guns. I fully support the right to own a gun, but where again is the harm of registering the gun? If its stolen and used in a crime of course they can try to pin it on you, but I think thats an extreme case. At the same time, you are more likely to get it back if stolen if it has been registered. The police have a better idea of where to look in a crime investigation. If the gun used in a crime is tracked back to a different city than the one the crime was committed in, there is a much better chance of actually catching the criminal and making YOUR neighborhood safer.

I would guess that since goverments have existed there have been people worrying about plots and loss of rights.

We live in a society, if you want to move to some back country lands where you never see another soul then you really dont have to worry about your rights of privacy, but when you interact with others there has to be limits on what is allows. In order to drive a car you must pass a test to prove you are competent to drive it. Why not the same for guns? As someone else posted I would feel much better about the people packing guns around if I knew they were able to use them properlly with less risk to the general public, esp here in Texas were its fairly easy to get a carry permit.

Do we have less 'rights' than we used to? In some cases that may be true, but its because people find a way to frell it up for the rest of us like the 911 incident. In most cases I dont think someone just says one day, "hey lets make a new law to put more restrictions on the general pubic". There is normally a driving force behind changes to laws that have to do with rights or restrictions to the general population.

To the original tread of this message it seems pretty simple to me. Get a picture taken like everyone else is required to do or not. Not just means you have no license, its your choice, no one forces you to decide. If it means more to you to not have your pic taken then you live with the results.

 

[TurboTer]

Sorry, but you can make an arguement for putting a picture on your license, but making citizens put their fingerprints on is abusive. I have done nothing wrong, so why should I be spyed on become some clown might be a terrorist? The whole "I've got nothing to hide" crowd makes me sick and is the reason this country is going down the toilet. They think they have nothing to hide, but so do many people until the government comes knocking (actually, like in the Ellion Gonzalez case in Florada, those government thugs didn't knock at all!) at your door. Registration is a nice word for government tracking. Look to your left! No, your right! Beware, Big Brother is watching you!

 

[gn85]

So, how do you propose the gov't or anything that resembles authority (not that you would trust it) tell the difference between someone who has done nothing wrong such as yourself and someone who has done something wrong. It's not tatooed on our foreheads??

I've had to go through 4 FBI Criminal Background Investigations for my job/career (teacher). Every time... my answer was the same.. I have NOTHING to hide, go right ahead. Every day when I go to work, I can trust the fact that all my colleagues have gone through the same security check and are of little danger to students. There is NO way that the county could have hired me with a degree of certainty to student safety if I hadn't done that. The same goes for the driving public at large. So... I DO say, "I have nothing to hide". Because I know it's going towards my safety and the safety of those that are placed in my charge.

So, I ask again.. how do we KNOW that you are not a threat or a danger?? I have no reason to beleive you are... but how is the everyday officer know that??

 

[dthrock]

If you have done nothing wrong why should you care if someone has the ability to 'spy' on you. Not like they are watching you every minute.

Why does "I've got nothing to hide" crowd makes me sick and is the reason this country is going down the toilet"

How do you figure? If you want to point a finger at someone/thing thats sending the country down the toilet try our Justice system. Its the lawyers thats getting these guys off on technicalities that should be taken out and beaten. When you can sue a company because you spilled your drink in your own lap, or because you feed your kids to much fast food and they get fat, then something is seriously wrong.

As GN85 said, how do we tell the trooper from the terriorist? There has to be a way to tell the difference. If you want to interact with society in this country there is a price for our freedoms. You cant have every thing every way you want it and still have a semi safe country any more. If you have a better idea on keeping my and your familys safe I would very much like to hear it. Maybe we can start a lobbiest group to get it implemented.

And please dont say you will protect your family with your trusty .45 cal. That didnt help the people on 911 did it? It didnt help the people in Ok City and its not going to help the people the next time these wackos, some of them american citizens, try it again.

Originally posted by TurboTer
Sorry, but you can make an arguement for putting a picture on your license, but making citizens put their fingerprints on is abusive. I have done nothing wrong, so why should I be spyed on become some clown might be a terrorist? The whole "I've got nothing to hide" crowd makes me sick and is the reason this country is going down the toilet. They think they have nothing to hide, but so do many people until the government comes knocking (actually, like in the Ellion Gonzalez case in Florada, those government thugs didn't knock at all!) at your door. Registration is a nice word for government tracking. Look to your left! No, your right! Beware, Big Brother is watching you!

 

[TylerDurden]

as of 2 nites ago, i think i saw on the news that she was denied in her law suit....WOW our system works...

2nd, i dont know if its been talked about in this thread as i didnt read it all....but is she gonna sue the airlines when they wont let her on cause she wont show "proper" ID????

hello!?!?!

AMERICA folks....you live in OUR country...obey OUR laws...period...

yes i know she isnt a forienger....recently converted to muslim or whatever...

btw does she sue the liquor store when they want to see PICTURE id to buy beer???? hehehe

 

[TurboJunky]

Florida Victory!

The vail must come off or don't drive! It's about time common sense triumphed in America's courtrooms:
Florida Wins!

 

[TurboTer]

Originally posted by dthrock
If you have done nothing wrong why should you care if someone has the ability to 'spy' on you. Not like they are watching you every minute.

Why does "I've got nothing to hide" crowd makes me sick and is the reason this country is going down the toilet"

How do you figure? If you want to point a finger at someone/thing thats sending the country down the toilet try our Justice system. Its the lawyers thats getting these guys off on technicalities that should be taken out and beaten. When you can sue a company because you spilled your drink in your own lap, or because you feed your kids to much fast food and they get fat, then something is seriously wrong.

As GN85 said, how do we tell the trooper from the terriorist? There has to be a way to tell the difference. If you want to interact with society in this country there is a price for our freedoms. You cant have every thing every way you want it and still have a semi safe country any more. If you have a better idea on keeping my and your familys safe I would very much like to hear it. Maybe we can start a lobbiest group to get it implemented.

And please dont say you will protect your family with your trusty .45 cal. That didnt help the people on 911 did it? It didnt help the people in Ok City and its not going to help the people the next time these wackos, some of them american citizens, try it again.

Because people who say they have nothing to hide are complete morons. How about some consideratin for others who DO have something to hide? A lot of good honest people don't want the government to be watching them. I for one don't want them watching what web sites I go on, reading my posts/e-mail, searching my car, watching when I get out of a club, checking my taxes 50 times to make sure I didn't cheat, keeping an eye out when I'm driving because I have a GN and therefore I must street race (which I don't, BTW), having on record my suspension in the 3rd grade for fighting with Little Johnny, etc. You may not think you have something to hide, but that's your ignorance. The government takes a much different view.

I dislike a lot (not all) of lawyers myself, so I'll have to agree with you there. But is it all their fault? No, a lot of it lies with the juries and judges. They all deserve some blame.

 

[TurboTer]

Re: Florida Victory!

Originally posted by TT/A1233
The vail must come off or don't drive! It's about time common sense triumphed in America's courtrooms:
Florida Wins!

Hey, where have you been? Come to my message board by clicking the Knight's Realm forums below.

As for Florida winning, is she gonna appeal? Do you think it'll go all the way to the US Supreme Court?

 

[gn85]

Originally posted by TurboTer
Because people who say they have nothing to hide are complete morons. How about some consideratin for others who DO have something to hide? A lot of good honest people don't want the government to be watching them. I for one don't want them watching what web sites I go on, reading my posts/e-mail, searching my car, watching when I get out of a club, checking my taxes 50 times to make sure I didn't cheat, keeping an eye out when I'm driving because I have a GN and therefore I must street race (which I don't, BTW), having on record my suspension in the 3rd grade for fighting with Little Johnny, etc. You may not think you have something to hide, but that's your ignorance. The government takes a much different view.

So... how do I know you are a GOOD HONEST citizen?? How does any authority know that?? They don't. They don't know if I am or if you are a GOOD HONEST citizen. Sure, they could ask me nicely, and just like anybody else, my answer would be yes. Even as I boarded a plane at Boston's Logan airport headed for the WTC, that would have been my answer... "I'm a GOOD HONEST citizen."

From reading your post, I'll take it as you are saying "gn85 is a moron". Maybe so... but not for saying "I have nothing to hide" but for getting into a conversation which has turned into nothing more then a "world according to TurboTer" response spewing out accusations of ignorance and being a moron.

Enjoy your new board, but don't call me ignorant because you think "THE NAZI'S ARE COMING, THE NAZI'S ARE COMING!!"

 

[TurboTer]

Originally posted by gn85
So... how do I know you are a GOOD HONEST citizen?? How does any authority know that?? They don't. They don't know if I am or if you are a GOOD HONEST citizen. Sure, they could ask me nicely, and just like anybody else, my answer would be yes. Even as I boarded a plane at Boston's Logan airport headed for the WTC, that would have been my answer... "I'm a GOOD HONEST citizen."

From reading your post, I'll take it as you are saying "gn85 is a moron". Maybe so... but not for saying "I have nothing to hide" but for getting into a conversation which has turned into nothing more then a "world according to TurboTer" response spewing out accusations of ignorance and being a moron.

Enjoy your new board, but don't call me ignorant because you think "THE NAZI'S ARE COMING, THE NAZI'S ARE COMING!!"

I didn't call you or anyone else a moron personally. As to how the government is supposed to know who's a good citizen and who's not? Easy. When someone gets arrested, they find out they are not a good citizen. No need to monitor anyone who's never comitted a crime.

I don't think the Nazi's are coming, as the government will not become one that takes other's land, kills people on the spot, etc., but I do think it has gotten out of control and will only get worse.

As for my new board, I welcome everyone, including you. Right now we are lacking liberals and I love a good debate (and no one gets censored for their views). Come on down, and you'll be suprised to see who a moderator is.

 

[gn85]

Originally posted by TurboTer
I didn't call you or anyone else a moron personally. As to how the government is supposed to know who's a good citizen and who's not? Easy. When someone gets arrested, they find out they are not a good citizen. No need to monitor anyone who's never comitted a crime.

I don't think the Nazi's are coming, as the government will not become one that takes other's land, kills people on the spot, etc., but I do think it has gotten out of control and will only get worse.

As for my new board, I welcome everyone, including you. Right now we are lacking liberals and I love a good debate (and no one gets censored for their views). Come on down, and you'll be suprised to see who a moderator is.

OK, you're not calling anyone that personally... but you're calling me a liberal???? ACKK!!!!! Now that OFFENDS!!!

OK.. I'll bury the hatchet simply. I actually am on the right.. you're way over, on the sidewalk, right!!! ANYBODY compared to you would be liberal. Just be careful tossing names around in the name of making a point. It really goes in the wrong direction.

As for your invitation. No thanks. I like talking Buicks and friendly chat in the lounge. NOT everything is a political quest. Only way I'd be surprised of who a moderator is if I was a mod.

 

[TurboTer]

Originally posted by gn85
OK, you're not calling anyone that personally... but you're calling me a liberal???? ACKK!!!!! Now that OFFENDS!!!

OK.. I'll bury the hatchet simply. I actually am on the right.. you're way over, on the sidewalk, right!!! ANYBODY compared to you would be liberal. Just be careful tossing names around in the name of making a point. It really goes in the wrong direction.

As for your invitation. No thanks. I like talking Buicks and friendly chat in the lounge. NOT everything is a political quest. Only way I'd be surprised of who a moderator is if I was a mod.

I'm sorry for calling you a liberal, but you've said nothing at all to prove otherwise. Where are you conservative? I don't call anyone liberal. I think the others like T/A-Something are neo-conservatives. You know, the Rudy Guiliani pro-law enforcement wing of the Republican Party (the kind I despise most). If you are a moderate or neo-con, by all means I apologize.

Personally, there are guys on my board who think I'm too liberal because I said there should be laws against selling guns to kids! Now, that's just crazy, and I'm as pro-gun as anyone!

Overall, I'm not extreme at all. I'm just part of the anti-government wing of the Republican Party, like the Repubs in Idaho (no Timothy McVeigh referances, please!). And my board isn't only about politics. There are 29 forums about everything from cars to sex talk to sports to video games. I hope you reconsider. If not, remember what we have in common: We are ALL a part of the Turbo Buick team!