Turbo conversion questions and advice

[Audioguy21]

I recently performed an EFi Upgrade, engine build, and transmission swap in one of my 1984 Cutlass supreme project cars. I was significantly impressed with the improvements over the factory/stock non-ecm 2bbl rochester carb and delayed timing. With the holley EFI conversion having a mass air flow sensor and once its been set it "auto tunes" itself, I am contemplating doing a grand national type turbo for even more of a sleeper car. Does anyone have any input of how, what, or where to get the parts associated with such a task. I would love for the grand national style in this vehicle. The original was known as the vader mobile*, with this blue color it would be like Skywalker.

 

[marleyskater420]

I recently performed an EFi Upgrade, engine build, and transmission swap in one of my 1984 Cutlass supreme project cars. I was significantly impressed with the improvements over the factory/stock non-ecm 2bbl rochester carb and delayed timing. With the holley EFI conversion having a mass air flow sensor and once its been set it "auto tunes" itself, I am contemplating doing a grand national type turbo for even more of a sleeper car. Does anyone have any input of how, what, or where to get the parts associated with such a task. I would love for the grand national style in this vehicle. The original was known as the vader mobile*, with this blue color it would be like Skywalker.

Are you looking where to buy the Holley EFI conversion, or where to get headers and a turbo for your engine conversion?

My buddy has a Cutlass with a GN engine swap in it, and he was able to use some old school Kenne Bell headers, which would make me think you could probably use the GN1 Kenne Bell-style headers that they sell.

If you're looking for a stock-style turbo, we (RPS) could hook you up with a new turbo. Here is a link for the turbos we have: https://www.boostedrps.com/turbos

If you're looking for the Holley EFI conversion, call Steve V's Automotive or Boost Crew Motorsports, I believe they are Holley dealers and they both have excellent pricing and customer service!

 

[Audioguy21]

I did the Holly sniper efi kit, edelbrock performer cams, lifters, timing, and intake manifold, THM200R4 swap (from monster transmissions), and a FAST cdi ignition box and coil. I did headman headers for the engine build. Now being impressed as I am with the project im wondering what exhaust system components, recommended turbo, and how to incorporate that to the Holley ego throttle body. Also suggestions for intercooler and turbo oil return suggestions.

 

[marleyskater420]

I did the Holly sniper efi kit, edelbrock performer cams, lifters, timing, and intake manifold, THM200R4 swap (from monster transmissions), and a FAST cdi ignition box and coil. I did headman headers for the engine build. Now being impressed as I am with the project im wondering what exhaust system components, recommended turbo, and how to incorporate that to the Holley ego throttle body. Also suggestions for intercooler and turbo oil return suggestions.

So I'll break down my response to address each of the things you asked for recommendations on:

1) Exhaust system components= Since you already have headers, your next step would be to look for a good downpipe, or at least one that you wouldn't mind chopping up in case you need to modify it so that it clears your suspension. Now my buddy with the GN-engine-swapped Cutlass just installed a 3" Terry Houston Downpipe (the real deal, not a copy) and it fit perfectly. Of course each engine is different, but I would suggest buying a used 3" DP in case you need to chop it up to fit. As for exhaust, RJC sells an excellent exhaust system that you can bolt up to the test pipe/Y-pipe/Cat coming off the downpipe: http://rjcracing.com/product/exhaust-systems-2/

2) Turbo= How much power are you looking for, and do you plan on doing any further work to the engine? Do you currently have a stock turbo, or do you currently have no turbo at all? We (RPS) sell WORK turbos, Borg Warner, and Garrett. We have sold a lot of WORK units with nothing but great reviews from customers. However that is my viewpoint, and I know I am biased (what owner of a company isn't?!) so take the word of your fellow forum members as to how well they like the turbos we sell: https://turbobuick.com/threads/big-thanks-to-boosted-rps.456761/
https://turbobuick.com/threads/rps-customer-service-a.456391/
https://turbobuick.com/threads/boosted-rps.456964/

If you are looking for a stock-appearing turbo, I just finished putting a WORK billet version of a TA49 on a local customer's car. This thing SERIOUSLY impressed me. Right when you thought the power might fall off, as do turbos with stock housings/smaller size wheels, this turbo kept pulling harder and harder...I've honestly never felt anything like this..not in how hard it pulled, but how it felt like each time you thought it might drop off in power, it was as if it got a "second wind" of sorts, and pushed you back into your seat again and again..it was a trip how it felt!

If you are looking for 600-700hp at the crank, like most TR owners do, I'd recommend the WORK billet 6262. This is what SpeedRacerX, the guy in the first thread link I posted up above, purchased from us. He sent in his stock turbo and received a brand new unit, complete with; billet backplate, 360 degree severe duty thrust bearing, ceramic coating turbine housing, completely balanced and blueprinted turbo rotating assembly, billet 61.5mm compressor wheel, coated center section. Before you think these turbos look like your "regular" rebuilds, this is what his "rebuilt" turbo from WORK looks like:






3) Incorporating that into the Holley throttle body= What specifically are you referring to? How to plumb the turbo so that it can go into the throttle body? How to tune the turbo using the Holley system? Could you please shed some light on this if you don't mind.

4) Intercooler= Are you looking for a stock location, or a front mount? Do you have a fabricator that can make you pipes and attach mounting brackets to the intercooler if the existing mounts do not line up on your car? If you are looking for a stock location unit, I would look at the For Sale section of this board. Currently I believe the only stock location intercooler (aka SLIC) on the market is the Precision unit, which costs almost $1,000. It is a great unit, but the price may be a bit much for some.

If you are looking for a front mount intercooler (aka FMIC) I would look at GN1 units if you are on a budget, otherwise RJC sells good units too. We (RPS) are currently in the process of designing and testing 4 new FMIC units for the Buick market. 2 of these use Treadstone intercooler cores, and the other 2 use Bell intercooler cores. For what its' worth, I am using a Bell core on my car after I became sponsored by them and their engineer designed, in my opinion, the best front mount intercooler that does not require modifications to the car, that I've seen. We still have yet to test the unit, which will be done later this year, but if it performs to just a fraction of what we've calculated it will do on paper, this thing will be unrivaled...BUT it is untested I just want to make that clear. If you were going to have a fabricator make your intercooler pipes, and add the mounting brackets to whatever fmic you get, I'd say to look at the Treadstone core if you're looking for a good budget IC. If you want some of the best IC's made on the market, I'd look at the Bell core.

If you're looking at a pure "plug n play" fmic that is better than the GN1 core, I'd take a look at RJC's 315 or 325 fmic's.

Treadstone core:


Bell core:


5) Return oil line suggestions: I'd make your own line with -10AN fittings and new braided lines.

I'd use something like this: http://www.siliconeintakes.com/braided-stainless-steel-lines/-p-605.html and bolt it to the turbo drain flange, and then make your own -10AN oil line using fittings from www.finishlinefactory.com We (RPS) use Finish Line Factory for all our cars with 100% success. If you do decide to make your own lines please let me know, as we get a killer discount from FLF and since you will be making your own lines, we offer steep discounts to customers that intend on building their own lines. If you do not want to build your own lines Finish Line Factory will assemble your oil line for you, all you have to do is provide the length of the hose, and what fittings you want on the end of it, and we can have your oil lines assembled for you! Not a bad deal, if I do say so. If you've never made your own lines before, I'd be happy to make a youtube video for you, instructing you how to assemble the lines.


Sorry for the long response, but I hope this answered a lot of your questions!

 

[ek02]

Do a search in the Before Black section. Look for a post by War Wagon. He has done a blow through setup using a carburetor. There is also a thread by Shaw R about using the Holley Sniper EFI on a blow through.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

Cruz Performance makes a Holley EFI wiring harness for our cars so you don't have to buy a 30+ yr old original one. Then use Holley HP ECU with it. That's what I'd do to convert to a GN type turbo setup when starting with a non-turbo car. I just installed one, so far it's super nice.

 

[Audioguy21]

3) Incorporating that into the Holley throttle body= What specifically are you referring to? How to plumb the turbo so that it can go into the throttle body? How to tune the turbo using the Holley system? Could you please shed some light on this if you don't mind.

Thank you for the in depth and detailed response i definately will be looking at one of the works turbos as well as the down pipe you suggested. the part i am interested in/inquiring about, is the "Plenum" or the "carb hat" that is used for the intake. I have done some searches and found some from turbokinetics*, Airraid, Vortech, and spectre. Looking for reccomendations on what to use to directly plumb into the throttle body.

Also next question. Dual alternators... and before i ask i will be upfront, i know they make high amperage alternators so please no (just do one big alternator) i have my reasons for not wanting to go that route and i am happy to discuss in an electrical section. I have eliminated my AC compressor (only using heat in Montana anyways) and removed my smog pump. Does anyone know if i can use the factory mounting brackets to add a secondary alternator to one of those locations, or if there is an aftermarket bracket to replace the AC or Smog bracket and add another alternator that way?

Also if anyone is interested in the build results of the engine and tranny swap. Prior to it was a naturally aspirated 3.8 with a THM350 transmission. The 0-60 was 14.2 seconds prior. I felt like a old lady trying to cross the street with her walker. With the engine build and the 200R4 transmission i almost halved my prior time and now am down to mid 8s. I know that is not that impressive however it was a huge jump in performance for me (also that with 85 pump gas containing 10% ethanol). Very much looking forward to adding the turbo. Thanks all again for the help in reducing my learning curve with advice and direction.

 

[Pronto]

You're not going to run a turbo on 85 octane. If you want to do blow through you'll need a "hat". Get off the dual alternator train, that's heading down the wrong track.

 

[Audioguy21]

Pronto, you are correct i will not run a turbo on pump 85, though it is possible i would not receive the outcome i am hoping to acheive by running a turbo. I will either run 93 ethanol free or i will run AV gas with a 100:1 top end lubricant. By mentioning 85 pump gas it leaves a constant and a frame of reference ie before and after the new transmission, engine build, and efi conversion. The gas that was still in tank was not going to go to waste.
I do now know about the carb hats and as some other companys call them plenums. In my most recent post i am asking for recommendations on the ones that are out there that i have seen throughout the forum and web. Thank you for your input.

Onto the dual alternator instead of 1 Big alternator. before telling me not to inquire about 2 alternators some context might help. I compete in the car audio "scene" and i'm currently a state record holder with 2 10s hitting an average of 152db and easily pop 175 amp breakers and fuses. I also use the car casually as an entertainment center at tailgates and fundraising events. Im not going to talk about wattage of the system because there is no uniform performance standard used by all aftermarket audio manufactures to measure their products. So the guys that are running "4000 watt" systems are most likely to be talking about peak power and not RMS.

So why am i asking about dual alternators... Alternators generate AC current and subsequent AC frequencies (alternator wine) that then gets filtered out by proper grounding, voltage regulators and good AGM or Lead Acid batteries. However big draws of power from a system can cause batteries to get hot and put strain on an alternator ( and change the AC frequencies). Could a 200A (or bigger) alternator suffice for the system and everything else?... surface values you bet. bigger amperage output most often equates to more noise that is needed to be removed/filtered. Even currently with 1 yellow top, 1 red top, and one 10 farad Hybrid cap i can still dim the lights on my car after idling approximately 1500 up to 3000 Rpms. My peak alternator output is between 2500-2800 RPMs however its hard to hold that specific range

When installing an EFI system they even tell you not to install the ECM next to "noisy" items such as CDI boxes, distributors, and alternators. So its not just me saying this. these items give off interference that any consumer electronic is regulated by the FCC to accept. Noisy electrical systems interfere with data being processed by a computer and can also effect performance and just be hard on a system. Why also if not doing a cdi box or a coil a RPM module is needed to refine the signal from either the distributor or clam-shell type fitting over a spark plug wire (similar to what a timing light uses). Better signal = better running motor. With all that said i want to completely (as best i can) isolate the efi ECM, and updated engine type electronics to be on its own system.

My stereo has actually "smoked" my alternators in the past thus leaving me stranded. If everything that is needed to make my car run, (fuel pump, efi system, cdi box) was supported and able to be ran independently, that would be a nice form of insurance for myself.

So the dual alternator is not just a novel or neat idea in my situation. I have already elimintated 3 points of strain and resistance to the motor ( smog pump, AC pump, and clutch driven fan) so adding one more alternator is still less strain my engine than when this build started. The dual alternator is meant to protect my investment on the new engine systems, its meant to use even cleaner signal and power than the rest of the car does, and in all reality what would it hurt to have two? diesels trucks utilize two alternators and there is a reason for that, because if amperage is all they are really looking for and considering then i bet new diesels would come with only 1.

To go above and beyond i will also put a power conditioner onto the EFI system for even more protection.

Im sure i left some other reasoning points out but i did hit on the major topics. I know electronics well above motors and that is why i am seeking advice on this forum. To receive insight, guidance and different perspectives on mechanical questions as well as "what not to do" and why. To learn why to do something a certain way.

On a related note if there is a benefit to using only one alternator that i overlooked that would weigh against the reasons i provided i am very much interested.

Thank you everyone that has taken the time to read, understand, and help me on this project thus far.

 

[Pronto]

Richard Clark is a renowned car audio expert as well as a renowed Turbo Buick expert maybe he can address the dual alternator and ecm location thing. He's busy right now with the Turbobuick.com Nationals this week. 93 is ok. A lot of us do alcohol injection, specifically a kit by Alkycontrol. Av gas is not the best for a boosted car. The alternative to alky is e85. Many have excellent results with that. Don't know if your ecm can deal with that though.

 

[Audioguy21]

Richard Clark is a renowned car audio expert as well as a renowed Turbo Buick expert maybe he can address the dual alternator and ecm location thing"

Can I ask why you are so against my interest in dual alternators?

 

[silver/black]

sounds like you got it figured. have a custom bracket made for 2nd alternator. show the rest the way

 

[Pronto]

Ca n I ask you why you're so interested in turbocharging?

 

[Audioguy21]

Ca n I ask you why you're so interested in turbocharging?

I am interested adding a turbo onto a throttle body/down thrust application because its something you do not see every day. It takes lots of research and in most instances (such as this) there is not a bolt on fit (which i like). Which makes it even more of a unique build. V6s are overlooked and the 3800 "Fireball" V6 Gm stuck with during the gas crisis/embargo is very dependable and for the time impressive with its capabilities. I've always been turned off by car shows that have chevelles, camaros, mustangs, and so on that are all identical and the owners have no story or passion behind their vehicles. They just purchased them or ordered items from a catalog. You can always tell the individuals that have blood sweat and tears put into their rigs and it shows in their work. I am doing this to be set apart from the attendees and to prove to myself it can be done. I am in no way doing this to be a drag racer or win a novelty trophy at a car show, but to add some diversity and bring history to them. Not many people know of the grand national let alone the capabilities of the V6 or that it was disbanded after it was leaving Chevrolet's golden child in the wind with 25% less cylinders.

I also live 6000ft (traveling the passes can get to 8500ft) above sea level so a little help with the breathe-ability up here is also an attractive reason. Hope that has answered your question.

All the research, compiling of advice and recommendations is so that i can be informed as possible when purchasing items as well as building tips and tricks, and possibly not make mistakes as some others might have done in the past when they didn't have the insight and advice either.

So i don't know why the passive aggressive trolls towards a newbie who is genuinely interested in providing small businesses revenue, and enjoying good old fashioned shop time trying building something unique to set myself apart from others in a culture where everyone is so attached to their electronics and instant gratification... but i hope you achieve your goals of continuing to better your track time and on each pass down that strip you return safely. Your title says "read the books, and followed the instructions". There is a lost art of listening to understand instead of listening to respond, it could probably apply here too. If you would like to know the sentimental value behind the car, and why my initiatives and goals on this project may be different than yours i would be happy send a private message. Until then, drive safely and have fun.

 

[Pronto]

By refering you to Richard Clark, a vendor here, who is both a TB expert and audio expert, I was doing you the best favor of all the answeres here. So you think I didn't listen? I listened to an arrogant newb. You want info but get on your high horse with a circumlocutory diatribe. I've been here a long time. Seen your type come and go. My quote is from Game of Thrones. My previous one applies to you. You know nothing John Snow.

 

[marleyskater420]

I am interested adding a turbo onto a throttle body/down thrust application because its something you do not see every day. It takes lots of research and in most instances (such as this) there is not a bolt on fit (which i like). Which makes it even more of a unique build. V6s are overlooked and the 3800 "Fireball" V6 Gm stuck with during the gas crisis/embargo is very dependable and for the time impressive with its capabilities. I've always been turned off by car shows that have chevelles, camaros, mustangs, and so on that are all identical and the owners have no story or passion behind their vehicles. They just purchased them or ordered items from a catalog. You can always tell the individuals that have blood sweat and tears put into their rigs and it shows in their work. I am doing this to be set apart from the attendees and to prove to myself it can be done. I am in no way doing this to be a drag racer or win a novelty trophy at a car show, but to add some diversity and bring history to them. Not many people know of the grand national let alone the capabilities of the V6 or that it was disbanded after it was leaving Chevrolet's golden child in the wind with 25% less cylinders.

I also live 6000ft (traveling the passes can get to 8500ft) above sea level so a little help with the breathe-ability up here is also an attractive reason. Hope that has answered your question.

All the research, compiling of advice and recommendations is so that i can be informed as possible when purchasing items as well as building tips and tricks, and possibly not make mistakes as some others might have done in the past when they didn't have the insight and advice either.

So i don't know why the passive aggressive trolls towards a newbie who is genuinely interested in providing small businesses revenue, and enjoying good old fashioned shop time trying building something unique to set myself apart from others in a culture where everyone is so attached to their electronics and instant gratification... but i hope you achieve your goals of continuing to better your track time and on each pass down that strip you return safely. Your title says "read the books, and followed the instructions". There is a lost art of listening to understand instead of listening to respond, it could probably apply here too. If you would like to know the sentimental value behind the car, and why my initiatives and goals on this project may be different than yours i would be happy send a private message. Until then, drive safely and have fun.

Look man, I mean this as genuinely as I can be- Pronto is right. You have a bit of a twatty attitude. I can tell you spend a lot of times on forums and have a vicarious take towards your online avatar.

Clearly you are well-educated, as you use words with more than two syllables, which is a good thing. However you have the vibe of what I would imagine some rich prick that goes to some Ivy-league school would have...which isn't a good thing.

I don't know how old you are, but I can tell you that I was 17 when I got my first GN, and I had a similarly twatty attitude like you do. I thought I knew everything and that these old fucks with these Buicks are all antiquated old farts that just learned how to log on to the "internets".

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

I'm not sure how young you are, but you come off as someone between the ages of 17-20, and I can tell you that not many people on this board have been our age and owned a GN. So I can say from personal experience that I do know what it is like to try to ask for help and feel like I am being attacked. As I look back though, I realize a lot of the opposition to "me" came from my abrasive attitude.

Maybe take a step back, take a deep breath, and know that we are genuinely trying to help you and look out for you. The knowledge on this board is simply astounding, but acting like you can poop and not have to wipe your ass just isn't the right attitude to subscribe to if you want to have the elder members provide their expertise to your queries.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you can heed my words.

By refering you to Richard Clark, a vendor here, who is both a TB expert and audio expert, I was doing you the best favor of all the answeres here. So you don't think I didn't listen? I listened to an arrogant newb. You want info but get on your high horse with a circumlocutory diatribe. I've been here a long time. Seen your type come and go. My quote is from Game of Thrones. My previous one applies to you. You know nothing John Snow.

I was once his type, 14 years ago. However I feel (now this is just how I feel it may not be reality ) that once I realized that what others were saying about my attitude was right, and I came to terms with the fact that I had a lot of maturing to do, I was able to open my eyes and mind up to what others were telling me, and I grew from there.

Maybe we don't throw him to the side just yet? Maybe we give him a chance to prove that he isn't just some rich kid with an education that Mommy and Daddy bought a pretty car for.

I say that because I know I used to be like this kid. In fact, Pronto, I'm sure you remember me when I first joined....I was a total asshole piece of shit know-it-all that had a chip on his shoulder and thought my shit don't stink. If you look at me now, I'm still an asshole, but I know that I don't know everything and that not only does my shit stink, but it often can be so massive it will clog toilets on its' own merit.

 

[Pronto]

Marley as you know, this site is the pinnacle of Turbo Buick information. It got there with a core of fantastic knowledgeable people. They helped me and I appreciated it. I've been here long enough to see the types of people that are looking for info. The project this guy has is pretty cool. If he wants to stop being a douche he'll get some useful info. I got a feeling though it's in his DNA.

 

[Audioguy21]

Look man, I mean this as genuinely as I can be- Pronto is right. You have a bit of a twatty attitude. I can tell you spend a lot of times on forums and have a vicarious take towards your online avatar.

Clearly you are well-educated, as you use words with more than two syllables, which is a good thing. However you have the vibe of what I would imagine some rich prick that goes to some Ivy-league school would have...which isn't a good thing.

I don't know how old you are, but I can tell you that I was 17 when I got my first GN, and I had a similarly twatty attitude like you do. I thought I knew everything and that these old fucks with these Buicks are all antiquated old farts that just learned how to log on to the "internets".

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

I'm not sure how young you are, but you come off as someone between the ages of 17-20, and I can tell you that not many people on this board have been our age and owned a GN. So I can say from personal experience that I do know what it is like to try to ask for help and feel like I am being attacked. As I look back though, I realize a lot of the opposition to "me" came from my abrasive attitude.

Maybe take a step back, take a deep breath, and know that we are genuinely trying to help you and look out for you. The knowledge on this board is simply astounding, but acting like you can poop and not have to wipe your ass just isn't the right attitude to subscribe to if you want to have the elder members provide their expertise to your queries.

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you can heed my words.




I was once his type, 14 years ago. However I feel (now this is just how I feel it may not be reality ) that once I realized that what others were saying about my attitude was right, and I came to terms with the fact that I had a lot of maturing to do, I was able to open my eyes and mind up to what others were telling me, and I grew from there.

Maybe we don't throw him to the side just yet? Maybe we give him a chance to prove that he isn't just some rich kid with an education that Mommy and Daddy bought a pretty car for.

I say that because I know I used to be like this kid. In fact, Pronto, I'm sure you remember me when I first joined....I was a total asshole piece of shit know-it-all that had a chip on his shoulder and thought my shit don't stink. If you look at me now, I'm still an asshole, but I know that I don't know everything and that not only does my shit stink, but it often can be so massive it will clog toilets on its' own merit.

Thank you Marley. As a new guy on here you did not take any shortcuts in explaining and catching me up to speed on a good set up for my project. You simplified the parts needed and explained it to where it made sense and saved me countless hours of google searching to get product besides the big name brand products and described accounts and experiences. This is the first forum, i'm on a few others, that my question and seeking for advice was not responded with discredit. So in short i have the utmost respect for you for taking the time to steer me in the right direction even willing to offer with part selection and pricing.

I did join this site for the wisdom and experience of other enthusiasts, which i did receive right out of the gate from a few members and i have even thanked for in previous postings. So it is hard to not feel attacked and have my questions thrown out, or to have what i thought was a huge step in progress to be shut down. There is tons of great information on here and that's what i'm seeking, and with that explanations as to why or why not. Everyone has their preferences, experiences, and insight and thats what i want to hear.

I worked all summer bailing hay the summer of 04 to save the money to buy this car from my grandpa. two weeks after finally convincing him to sell me his car for 1200.00 i suffered an aneurysm/stroke, loosing feeling in my right leg. After a six week stay in the hospital and countless months i was still struggling to learn to walk again. My grandpa had the idea to put me in the car so i could feel the vibrations in my hips and body. once the car revved i could literally feel when i was pushing the throttle or when i was moving my leg. Physical therapy, electro stimulations, and numerous other methods couldn't do what that car did. I was 14 at the time and have kept it all these years until i could put the money it deserves into it. Plus many other road blocks from then untill now.

I dont know pronto or the credibility behind what he says, because that comes with time. But i wont drop a subject or inquiry after the first person tells me its not a good idea without any explanation at all. And i think everyone on a forum can agree, its nice to know why, and how.

So Marley, thank you again and i respect you