Why alcohol instead of water?

Could you share the "proof" that anything more than 50% Alky raises intercylinder temps

What comes to mind is the Aquamist site....aquamist.co.uk

Ive seen it there....And you might also check out the carrollsupercharging.com and check out gaseous intercooling..IM not sure I saw it there too, but its possible.

And I dont know where else...Maybe its not true...Also with aquamist, their pumps, although the best in the business, will not tolerate anything over 50/50. And thats just with methanol...Isopropyl swells the seals at over 25%. And ethanol (detnatured) at over just 5%. So, you see, the culture surrounding the aquamist products, at least, supports a max of 50/50. Clearly, on this board, alot of folks are preferring the alky predominant mixtures.

I guess more testing needs to be done for definative results...Sicne I have the aquamist products, its all academic for me...50% it will be, if I want my pump not to swell up to the point of losing function :)

Heres a quote from Richard of Aquamist, detailing some of their reasoning:

>>Water is by far the best coolant for inlet as well as in-cylinder. We only recommend alcohol for anti-freeze reason. But for bolt-on system that requires a great deal of inlet cooling thus injecting a great deal of water for cooling, it is necessary to add alcohol to reduce the heat lost within the cylinders. Rule of thumb. If you run greater than 15% of water of fuel, it would be advisable to add alcohol to re-claim any power loss due to over
watering. Excessive alcohol will lead to onset of detonation as the latent heat is compromised by the heat energy released by the alcohol during burning.

Latent heat properties:

Water: 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol: 904kJ/kg
Methanol: 1109 kJ/kg
<<
 
Originally posted by turbov6joe
I've been running 100% denatured with good results. After reading this thread I decided to try a 50/50 alky-water mix at the track and see what happens. Prior to this I could run 21 psi with 92 octane with a max pump speed setting and have almost no knock retard. With the 50/50 mix my KR was in the upper single digits all night untill the resevoir starting running low and I added 100% alky back to the mixture. As I added 100% alky, the KR got continuely lower all night. Right now I'm using a Jay Carter street chip with OE squirters and turbo. What gives???

What were your 02 readings with 50/50 vs 100? I suspect you might need all the fueling you can get, and adding water caused detonation because you started running leaner. I suspect 50/50 might be the best choice given you maintain a proper AF ratio. Hey, they used it in WWII (Germans called it MW-50).
 
My experiences

I have MSD 50s, a PT 51, THDP, etc etc... I added the SMC Dual Alky Kit and started off using 100% Denatured... Seemed to work ok. Added the power plate and I could run more boost, and was a noticable difference. Well I had some methanol and decided to mix methanol and dentaured... 50/50 mix... I got a bets run at teh track that night with it... but came at a bad price 17* knock, had to let off... If I would have had a little more octane I'm sure that would have been a great run. I went back to denatured for street use, came down to Houston area and tried Rubbing Alcohol... same effect...cheaper... Hmmm? So what gives? My static fuel pressure is 37 line off, I am running 21 PSI no knock, o2s are 800-810. Should I increase fuel and run less alky? Right now I am running max pump speed. This is a very interesting debate...how can I help the reasearch? :D
 
and tried Rubbing Alcohol

Orion, what was the result of the Ispropyl? If you could summarize your experiences with Methanol, Denatured ( which is a blend of methanol and ethanol, so why would you want to add methanol to it when its already got it? To increase the percentage of methanol in it?), and Isopropyl.

Thanks.
 
Results...

At the track, the 50/50 mix of Methanol/Denatured made a substantial difference, I was running 13 flats brakes messed up bad, on DOTS, no boost launches, and pump gas, the first result the car blew the tires away and we noticed a big difference, we had to let off after 1/8 mile due to knock and went through the trap barely on it, netted a 12.68@104.78 MPH with a 2.2 60' This is at 3500 feet, dry desert air... So obviously the power was there, because we ran the same 60' and lost trap speed but the ET went up, so were made ground. I concluded methanol was a good mix, just couldn't supress the detonation.

I moved to Houston, started using 70% Rubbing alky in place of Denatured and it works great, cools good, and I now run 21-22 PSI with 0 knock O2s in 800-810 range. I haven't tried Methanol or denatured here. Water is soemthign I have yet to try also. I am trying to decide how best to "tune" the static fuel pressure versus the alky mixture at full pump speed. Any have any ideas?
 
Water is soemthign I have yet to try also. I am trying to decide how best to "tune" the static fuel pressure versus the alky mixture at full pump speed. Any have any ideas?

Well, plain water would obviously have the least effect on your af tuning, so for the purest tune, try that...Also, water has the greatest effect on cooling due to its latency properties with regard to heat. But, we all know alky helps the evaporation, and adds to fueling....Maybe just try plain water, along with your best af curve........This should give you your purest results.


Im surprised you did so well on the 70 iso/30 water mixture...Methanol has the higher octane, and most guys have better results on the methanol than the isopropyl..At least they Think they do ;)
 
While now out of print, Sir Harry Ricardo book the High Speed Internal Combustion engine, cover it in detail. As of last year was still available on the Library Loan Program.
If you look thru the NACA papers there's a ton of info about it.
Bob Harris posted a paper at the DIY list about what happens chemically when you add water to the combustion chamber process.
 
Ok Orion, that post was clear..:)

You are reaching the limit of the SMC kit, IMO. A lot of guys will brag they are running higher, but did they actually get all the way through the quarter?

Interestingly, Steve of SMC reccomender a 30% mixture to me. That may be the perfect mix! Why not try a 40% mix next?

Not sure if adding fuel pressure is the right thing, tho I don't know anyone that is running the 50's @ 37 static. As you know 42.5 is the norm, but hey I saw a guy running 30# and blue tops, and he was running mid-12's. That was on 110 octane tho...

So many variables. Different engine combos, boost and fp guages that are a little off, chips, nozzle sizes, pump pressures, activation point(s) plug, octane of the 'pump gas' ;).

My point is that it is up to you now. You got this far, so try a few different things. I think you have done a great job, but you may have hit the octane limit..

It might not be much help since I am running alum. heads and havn't quite finished tuning my SMC/Aquamist injection, but when I hit the 'wall' I went to smaller nozzles (1mm) and 2 stages. This would cost you about $200 from Aquamist. Activating 2 nozzles @ 5psi, and 2 more at 15 psi. (one of the second stage nozzles 'might' be a .8 mm;)) This is a similar set-up to other aquamist systems used in our cars. Also due to the better atomization, the best mix is 50-50. I've gained 3-4 psi so far after making that change.

BTW I wouldn't run methanol with that pump. Steve Hill has stated that he sees no difference between methanol, or denatured alchy when used as a cooling injection agent. I can't find any reason to argue with him. They are so similar the difference is not worth the risk of loosing the alchy pump, and headgaskets.

BBTW Steve checked my old motor by running it (pumping) for three minutes. It failed. (prolly my fault for trying weird mixtures in it). I was having intermittent problems, sooo, this is a good test for anyone to do, if they are having problems tuning, or if they ran meth. through the pump for any time period ..:)
 
BTW I wouldn't run methanol with that pump. Steve Hill has stated that he sees no difference between methanol, or denatured alchy when used as a cooling injection agent. I can't find any reason to argue with him. They are so similar the difference is not worth the risk of loosing the alchy pump, and headgaskets.

Tim, I dont think I understand here. Im mostly familiar with the Aquamist pump, which I have...According to Aquamist, you musnt use Ethanol in these pumps, because ethanol swells the viton seals in as low a concentration as just 5%...Being that Denatured is just something like 95% Ethanol, and 5% methanol (the 'de-naturing' agent), that would rule out Denatured as well....But, according to Aquamist, Methanol can be used all the way up to 50/50 strength before the viton will begin to swell...They, therefore, recommend using Methanol as the best alcohol to mix with water, all the way up to 50% strength.

Thats why I dont understand your pro-scription against its use. Can you expand at all, or is this more a hunch on your part than the result of any valid testing, as Aquamist as done with their product, before making this recommendation.
 
Here you go, and though the article pertains to ethanol fuels, there is one part that is pertinent to this thread. I've put it in bold.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gas/Ethanol Fuels: Tank Up!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by Bob Hoffmann, from the March 2001 Newsletter

It irked me immediately when I saw it. Perhaps you’ve seen it as well: The sign in front of a local Chevron station that read "Prevent expensive engine repairs; buy ethanol-free fuels here." When I lived in Ohio, I usually filled my gas tank with 10% ethanol blends, and had never had a problem with them. I also liked the fact that my fuel dollars helped feed the farmers who grew the corn from which ethanol was distilled. Gasoline mixed with ethanol produces less carbon monoxide and smog compared to straight gas. Finally, since ethanol is produced domestically, and much of our petroleum supply comes from abroad, I was buying locally, so to speak, reducing the trade deficit, and keeping oil rigs out of environmentally sensitive areas. So when I saw the ethanol-disparaging sign, I stopped my petroleum-consuming means of conveyance at the nearest parking spot and walked in to see Marc, the station owner. Yes, he was responsible for the sign. Yes, he claimed, ethanol-blended fuels could damage vehicle engines.

He launched into a litany of ethanol-related problems. Ethanol oxidizes metal parts, which can result in the clogging of fuel injectors. Additionally, ethanol has a tremendous ability to attract and absorb water. This causes performance and mechanical problems. He mentioned a number of other supposed problems caused by ethanol.

I was skeptical, but he seemed to be presenting his case in a very scientific manner. "If you claim ethanol is so damaging," I asked, "Why do all automakers allow its use under warranty?" Simple, he responded; because the Environmental Protection Agency requires the use of ethanol in certain markets, therefore the automakers have to cover it in their warranties. Indeed, ethanol-blended gas obviously damages engines, because "I get service bulletins on this all the time."

To see if he was having a common misunderstanding in the automotive world, I asked if he wasn’t confusing ethanol with methanol, a much more toxic and corrosive fuel additive. "They’re both alcohols, aren’t they?" he responded. I was shocked that a mechanic would be equating the two.

"If you had a glass of ethanol and a glass of methanol, would you drink both?" I asked.

"I never drink," he responded flatly. Probably a good thing, I thought, since he doesn’t know the difference. I finally asked him if he had any proof of his claims. Where were those service bulletins he was constantly receiving? He didn’t have any on hand, but if I’d come back later, he’d show me what he could find.

When I returned, he had printed two chapters of Motor Gasolines Technical Review, a publication available on the Chevron Web site (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/bulletin/motorgas/). He had highlighted the presumably pertinent passages. "What about service bulletins?" I asked. He didn’t have any for me, but suggested that I contact the individual automakers.

So what did the Chevron document contain to support his claims that ethanol blends could damage engines? In a word, nothing. Motor Gasolines Technical Review’s chapters on engine systems, including fuel injectors, did not mention ethanol a single time. The document did mention methanol's "corrosivity and toxicity defects," leading me to believe that this was another case of confusion between ethanol and a similar-sounding, but very different alcohol. After contacting customer service at Ford and Chrysler, and contacting local GM and Jeep/Nissan dealers, I couldn’t find any service bulletins or other documents claiming that ethanol damages the engines or components of any vehicles. Typically, service staff remembered hearing of this supposed damage in the past. Some said that ethanol actually had caused corrosion and deposits on the fuel injectors of early- to mid-1980's cars. Others said, no, not corrosion, but erosion. The details varied, but one thing was constant: The inability to produce supporting documentation.

I then contacted the American Coalition for Ethanol (http://www.ethanol.org/) and spoke with Trevor Guthmiller. He said that ethanol, besides being an alcohol, could be characterized as a detergent. It can loosen carbon deposits, particularly in older vehicles, but since many fuels now contain detergents, this effect is not unique to ethanol. He was very firm that this would not damage engines. "The fuel filter will capture any loose carbon deposits, so if you switch from leaded gasoline to a detergent fuel, you will eventually have to change your fuel filter." He also stated that he’d never seen any documentation about ethanol damaging fuel injectors. "Automakers were cautionary about ethanol fuel blends in the beginning, but after thorough testing, they realized that it wasn’t ethanol that was causing problems," he told me. "Methanol blends were frequently responsible for engine damage." Since then, automakers have endorse, without reservation, the use of gasoline blended with up to 10% ethanol. This is born out by Ford Motor Company’s Technical Article: Ethanol/Methanol Fuel Blends:

Ford Motor Company vehicles should operate normally if the customer uses blends that contain no more than 10% ethanol or a blend that contains no more than 5% methanol with its necessary co-solvents and additives. If the methanol does not contain the necessary co-solvents & additives, it will damage the vehicle.

Note that Ford’s statement is without qualification in terms of vehicle model, production year, or the presence of fuel injectors. Also note that a 10% blend is the maximum typically available, so if you buy an ethanol-blended fuel, you don’t have to worry about whether the ethanol concentration is too rich for your vehicle.

What about the claim that automakers allow the use of ethanol blends only because the E.P.A. mandates ethanol blending in certain areas? There is no such requirement. According to the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990, "All gasoline sold in the specified carbon monoxide nonattainment areas during the winter months when the carbon monoxide level is the highest must be oxygenated gasoline with a minimum oxygen content of 2.7 weight percent." There is no requirement for the use of ethanol, ever. The requirement is simply to use an oxygenated additive, and ethanol is one of several currently available. Chevron itself uses ethanol to oxygenate gasoline in numerous markets, such as Seattle, Spokane, Vancouver, and Portland, while it uses another common oxygenate, MTBE, in other areas. Incidentally, MTBE is the same additive that the EPA would like banned in motor fuels, as it is contaminating ground water supplies.

What about ethanol’s water-absorbing capabilities? Yes, water is soluble in ethanol, otherwise you would have to shake your beer to mix the alcohol with the water, and we know what a mess that would make. In terms of fossil fuels, Chevron states that a gasoline-alcohol blend can dissolve water up to 6000-7000 ppm at 70°F. "When this blend is cooled, both the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble. The result, in both cases, is two layers of liquid: an upper ethanol-deficient gasoline layer and a lower ethanol-rich (about 75% ethanol) water layer. The engine will not run on the water layer." (Chapter 4, Motor Gasolines Technical Review)

Chevron did not state the likelihood of this degree of contamination. But they specifically state that ethanol is transported in such a manner as to prevent contamination with water. While a 10% ethanol-gas blend can dissolve up to 40 times more water than straight gasoline, Trevor Guthmiller of the American Coalition for Ethanol states that it is highly unlikely that gasoline will come into contact with enough water to result in such high concentrations. This amount of water in your gas tank can stop your car dead, whether or not the gasoline is blended with ethanol. Because ethanol-blended gasoline can dissolve water, it greatly reduces the chance of fuel-line freeze-up or water accumulation in your gas tank (e.g. due to condensation). Any water is diluted throughout the fuel and passes through the fuel line and combustion system with little or no compromise in performance. This effect, says Guthmiller, is responsible for ethanol blends gaining market share in the winter in South Dakota, where he is based.

There are a number of other supposedly negative claims against the use of ethanol in fuel. These claims tend to vaporize with careful research. So you can confidently fill your gas tank with ethanol blends. They burn cleaner, support American farmers, and reduce the dependence on imported fossil fuels.

Chevron Corporation was asked to comment on technical issues and any policy about anti-ethanol signage at Chevron service stations. They forwarded the inquiry to the consumer affairs department three weeks before the press deadline, but no response has been forthcoming.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Hoffmann is the Web Master of the Moscow Food Co-op. He prefers to get around town by bike or foot, although you can occasionally see him changing the climate in his Jeep Cherokee. He will happily reconsider his endorsement of ethanol when presented with credible scientific evidence.
 
Here is something from the Chevron site:

METHANOL IS NOT ETHANOL

Ethanol and methanol should not be confused; they are different compounds. While limited amounts of gasoline oxygenated with methanol and its cosolvents have been available in the past, its use in the future is likely to be minimal.

• Gasoline oxygenated with methanol is more corrosive towards fuel system metals and accelerates deterioration of elastomers.

• Gasoline oxygenated with methanol is not approved by many vehicle owner’s manuals.

• Adding methanol to gasoline significantly increases the vapor pressure of the blend — an undesirable effect in this era of more stringent volatility controls.

• Methanol is much more toxic than ethanol.
 
Tim, all I know is Aquamist pumps will lose pressure with as weak an ethanol concentration as 5%. But Methanol can be used up to 50% strength before suffering the same ill fate. So, I dont have much choice...Methanol it is!
 
Paul, in this article they use Viton rubber to resist corrosion to ethanol. (in bold) from what I can gather, both alcohols are corrosive.

Somebody called flowjet a while back, and asked them if they could put alchy through their pumps. The company said no.

Then a board member posted that he had been using that pump for years, without any problems.

Since they are 2 very different alcohols, perhaps the ethanol does indeed react to something in the Aquamist pump, that methanol does not bother. A very good possibility....

TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER SHEET

HOW TO CONVERT A GASOLINE VEHICLE TO ETHANOL

The Society of Automotive Engineers at The University of Texas converted a 1997 Malibu to use E85 (85% denatured ethanol plus 15% gasoline). Converting a modern port fuel injected (PFI) gasoline engine to use E85 requires modification of the fuel storage and delivery system and addressing safety considerations. Each of these is discussed below.

Fuel Storage and Delivery System Modifications

The most basic concern regarding the stock fuel system is corrosion caused by the ethanol in the E85. Standard fuel systems often consist of plastics and rubbers and metals that are degraded by absorption of ethanol into the material. Over time, the materials lose their structural integrity, becoming swollen and soft. This can lead to disintegration or fuel leaks in the system. Materials such as low-density polyethylene and low-density polypropylene are commonly used in automotive designs due to their toughness and low cost, and these plastics resist corrosion by ethanol as well. Also, fluorinated plastics (e.g. Teflon) and the rubber, Viton, resist corrosion.
 
Materials such as low-density polyethylene and low-density polypropylene are commonly used in automotive designs due to their toughness and low cost, and these plastics resist corrosion by ethanol as well. Also, fluorinated plastics (e.g. Teflon) and the rubber, Viton, resist corrosion.

Tim,

Im enclosing an excerpt from an email from a principle at Aquamist...Now, their testing consisted of tossing the viton seals into the various fluids...I dont know how representative this is of the real world pump environment, but I doubt whether the pump subjects them to anything stronger...The question is whether the pump subjects them to anything near as strenuous...

"The Aquamist water pump uses viton valve and seals and the valve is prone to swelling to resulting in loss of pumping effiency.

We have tested three alcohols with the valve (soaked for one week) and found that methanol cause the lowest absorption - can be used as high as 45% with minimal swelling. Isopropanol is accepatbel up to 20% and ethanol up to 5-8%. "

This seems to be at odds with info you give, but, since its the pump thats at question, I dont think we can do better than adhere to the manufacturer, based on his testing of just this situation.
 
Interesting, Paul. Certainy one would have to be convinced after reading that.

We know Methanol is more corrosive when it comes to metals, but less 'corrosive' to viton? I'm not a chemist, so I have no idea. I know someone on this board had success replacing a stock pump seal with a viton one. I don't remember who for sure it was, of what mix he was running.

Why not start a thread on this, and see what we can find out?

The way these pumps work, the way they are designed, etc., I have no idea. A little swelling in the Aquamist valve might be all it takes for a malfunction. Sure wouldn't want a pump failure at WOT!:(
 
We know Methanol is more corrosive when it comes to metals, but less 'corrosive' to viton?

Perhaps its not the corrosiveness, per se, which is the problem...Perhaps, instead, its related to the fact that Methanol is absorbed at a lesser rate than is the Ethanol....Perhaps its the relative rate of absorbtion which is really at issue!
 
http://www.dupont-dow.com/Applications/Automotive/automotive.asp

You have to sign in. Go to applications, sign in, and refer to the chart that deals with different elastomers, and the effects of different substances on them.

Here are the results:



Methanol: Rating Legend A
<10% volume swell. Elastomer may exhibit slight swelling and/or loss of physical properties
B
10-30% volume swell. Elastomer affected by chemical exposure (slight visible swelling and/or loss of physical properties).
C
30-50% volume swell. Elastomer affected by chemical exposure (moderate to severe swelling and/or loss of physical properties. Limited functionality possible but must be determined by testing).
D
>50% volume swell. Elastomer shows extreme volume swell and/or loss of physical properties. Not recommended for service.


Types of Viton® Rating
Special Extreme ETP A Special-GFLT A
F-type A
B-type B
Special-GLT D
A-type D

De-natured:

Special Extreme ETP A
Special-GFLT A
Special-GLT A
F-type A
B-type A
A-type A


Denatured:
Elastomer Rating
Natural Rubber, Isoprene 1
Butadiene Styrene, Butadiene 1

1=Little to Minor Effect, 0 to 5% Volume Swell
2= Minor to Moderate Effect, 5 to 10% Volume Swell
3=Moderate to Severe Effect, 10 to 20% Volume Swell

elastomer type:
Butyl 1
Ethylene Propylene 1
Nitrile 1
HNBR 1
Epichlorohydrin 1
Polychloroprene 1
Chlorosulfonated Polyethylene 1
Chlorinated Polyethylene ---
Urethane 4
Polyacrylate 4
Polysulfide 1
Silicone 1
Fluorosilicone 1
Tetrafluoroethylene/Propylene ---
Fluoroelastomer - Dipolymer 1
Fluoroelastomer - Terpolymer 1
Zalak® 1
Perfluoroelastomer 1


Methanol:

Elastomer Rating
Natural Rubber, Isoprene 1
Butadiene Styrene, Butadiene 1
Butyl 1
Ethylene Propylene 1
Nitrile 1
HNBR 1
Epichlorohydrin 2
Polychloroprene 1
Chlorosulfonated Polyethylene 1
Chlorinated Polyethylene 1
Urethane 4
Polyacrylate 4
Polysulfide 2
Silicone 1
Fluorosilicone 1
Tetrafluoroethylene/Propylene 1
Fluoroelastomer - Dipolymer 4
Fluoroelastomer - Terpolymer 1
Zalak® 1
Perfluoroelastomer


So you can see that ethanol (de-natured)overall has less effect on swelling than methanol, and that most materials stand up to de-natured quite well. The methenol is only slightly worse than the ethanol, in this regard.

Of course, this is just a washer sitting in the solution, right?

Who knows what happens if, say, the washer is used as a seal. Different story maybe when there is a pump shaft rotating in the middle of it.

There is 1 viton seal that is not reccomended for use with either alcohol. Maybe that is the one that Aquamist uses?

Either way something doesn't sound right here.

From all I have read, I have to say that de-natured is safer than methanol.
 
Either way something doesn't sound right here.

You know, Tim, this data certainly flies in the face of Aquamist's findings, doesnt it! I think I'll forward them on to them, and ask for their response. Maybe they need to do their tests again.

Interestingly, at

http://www.dupont-dow.com/crg/vitonGuide.asp

if you check methanol on the list box, you actually get DIFFERENT results than if you check Methyl Alcohol (methanol). Whats up with that? Arent they the same?

Also interesting, know which alcohol rates straight As down the table? Isopropyl Alcohol! Maybe we should all switch over to that! I just sent the pages to Aquamist, and asked for their interpretation in light of the Dupont findings which as you say, are contradictory. The table I looked at only shows about a half dozen types of Viton...Whereas, in reality I think there are several dozen...Maybe in light of this evidence, Aquamist will change the type of Viton theyre using?

We'll see...Interesting stuff.
 
So you can see that ethanol (de-natured)overall has less effect on swelling than methanol

Hi TurboTim,

Its been awhile, but I wanted to bring you up to date on one of the latest developments over at Aquamist...

The current Aquamist racing and regular pumps were designed primarily for use with water, although they will tolerate alky concentrations up to 50% methanol, 25% Isopropyl, and just 5% Ethanol...However....they are currently in the latter stages of production of a new pump, which will tolerate Methanol up to 75% strength with no deleterious effects. I dont know the new numbers yet for Ethanol or Isopropyl. This pump will be available to the market toward the end of the year.

Since I run a max of 50% Methanol, the current pump should suffice for my purposed...But for guys who want to run an alky predominant system, this should come as very good news. Its always good to have more than one resource in a given market...I know that most guys over here like the SMC kit using the Shureflo pump, I believe, while the high performance European guys with FI have gravitated toward the Aquamist setups.
 
I don't know what pump Steve uses in the SMC. That kit just keeps getting better and better though!

I 'm skeptical of your source at Aquamist. I mean, (nothing against you) but what are the chances that they use the one and only viton seal that swells in alchy? Sometimes people will say anything to impress you, or get you off the phone. Rather than simply say "I don't know", some reps will dump a load of B.S. on you.

I believe only what I see most of the time...

Sometimes I don't even believe that! :)
 
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