what can we do to make our cars handle with like these imports

[87grandnat]

seems like the only thing these ricers have on us performance wise is there cars handle very well, what could be done to one of ours to make it handle like one, or is it even possible?

 

[XLR8]

I think it's possible, but you need to upgrade the entire front and rear suspensions. I do know how to make it run in the 1/4 like an import - just pull off 2 plug wires.

 

[salvageV6]

My car handles like an import just by putting my cap on backwards and slumping down stupidly in my seat with one arm on top of the wheel and the other fondling the shift lever.

The hard part is driving stoopidly.

Good suspension, tires, and brakes is all you need to handle and race a G body.

Ask Racer X on the other site.

 

[turbofish38]

I've been beating the crap out of those boys for years. Here is a link for an article on my car. You will need to rotate as this was my first attempt at the pdf file. http://www.msnusers.com/turbofish38/Documents/GSXTRA%20AUTO%20X.pdf
It is all old school stuff but it can be done on a budget.
All I can say is as far as I am concerned its 90% driver and 10% car.
Like salvage6 said, they all drive like retards anyway so half of your work is already done.

 

[87grandnat]

wont let me get on page

 

[mustanghunter7]

yeah same here link dont work

 

[DeltaT]

I would upgrade handling in this order:

- Wheels and tires
- Shocks
- Add-on Chassis Reinforcements, like the bolt-on GM braces you can get off various cars (Monte SS, Grand Prix, etc)
- Springs & Swaybars, Swaybar Bushings (I like softer springs and big swaybars)
- Suspension Bushings (I really like the PolyGraphite for street - no squeaks)
- Heavier Chassis reinforcements, like Hotchkis Rear Braces, Seat brace, body bushings, etc.
- Roll cage

By then you should be handling pretty good!

Jim

 

[87grandnat]

what kind of wheels and tires would be good for handeling

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by 87grandnat
seems like the only thing these ricers have on us performance wise is there cars handle very well, what could be done to one of ours to make it handle like one, or is it even possible?

Which foreign cars are you talking about?.
Of the ones importable to the US none are really that good, other then a few exotics. Talking paved road, I'd assume.
For racing in a tiny parking lot, then yes a smaller car is more manueverable. But, given any real road racing track the GNs can be a force to content with.

Mine handles, OK.

http://home.woh.rr.com/brucesgn/

 

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by 87grandnat
what kind of wheels and tires would be good for handeling

87grandnat,

Bigger wheels (up to a point, like where they start getting heavier or purely ornamental), stickier tires with less sidewall roll (stiffer sidewall), Lower profile tires (less sidewall roll).

I know people with G-bodies that have gone to 18" wheels and now think they are too harsh a ride. I chose 17" so I could still use a 40 or 45-series tire and have some a decent ride. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that a 16" wheel was big!

If you want to look at wheels & tires, I reccommend The Tirerack at www.tirerack.com. I buy all my tires and most wheels from them. Also check out Wheel Vintiques at www.wheelvintiques.com

Jim

 

[Renthorin]

I remember an article from the 80's or early 90's where they took a Monte SS and put on a Hotchkiss system. It pulled over .9 g's on the skid pad.

They also added better tires and slightly larger rims.

I ran poly bushings in my 84 cutlass on the front upper and lower control arms and the damn thing was level and very tight (like a tiger).

Might want to consider lowering springs. Nothing radical but bring the center of gravity down a tad.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by 87grandnat
what kind of wheels and tires would be good for handeling

Goodrich DKWS, are a neat tire. Some of the 17s don't work at all in the rain. I've got 285/45x17s in the rear and 225/50x16s up front. They do very well in the handling end of things.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

I did a cheesey write-up on mine:
http://www.andrewdscott.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4

The guys over at Montecarloss.com are doing a lot of very interesting work on the front suspension.

You biggest weakness is tires. Depending on your options and how many (and how big) the passengers are, you're looking at 3500 to 3800 pounds. It takes a LOT of tire to keep that kind of mass stuck. Think 10" Goodyear slick. 295/35/17 Hoosier A3S04s. Big tires.

The second weakness is brakes. The stockers cannot survive repeated stopping like you'd get on a road course, and they don't generate enough torque to seriously slow the car quick enough for Autocross. You may be able to lock the front wheels up now, but when you slap those 10" R compounds on, you won't be locking anything.

The front suspension sucks. The roll center height is five inches underground (ideal location is equal to the center of gravity, which is 18" above ground). The front has a positive camber curve, causing the outside tire in a turn to ride on the outside edge instead of curving inward and maintaing the contact patch. The result is massive amounts of understeer at the limit.

Is this fixable? Yes. Will it ever do as well as a 2700lb Honda Civic? Probably not. Physics are against us.

If you check the parts list in my write-up, you'll see some pretty simple stuff. The key is to get a stock car catalog (ie NASCAR). Adjustable upper control arms and taller ball joints (I've done the upper ball joints, not the lowers yet, still looking for the right ball joint). The taller truck upper ball joint raises the RCH up to nearly level with the ground. The upper arms with the right alignment (-0.5 degrees static camber) will introduce a negative camber curve. These two changes alone make an enourmous difference in turn-in and behavior at the limit.

There is not a whole lot you can do to the rear without relocating all the suspension pickup points. What you CAN do is not use polyurethane. Rubber or spherical bearings only. Box the arms. Bruce's coil-over conversion is awesome. I'd be looking in that area, but I don't want to cut and weld on the car.

Springs are easy. Again, stock car parts catalog. Selectable rates at the right diameter and height starting at 300lb/in and moving upwards of 1600.

My combo ran within .1 second of my Dad's C5 corvette on a 35 second autocross course. Not a scientific comparison, as the drivers were not the same, but it is telling of what is possible. I went to an autocross Sunday, and the SS Z06 vettes with good drivers were putting about five seconds on me on a course that took me 45 seconds to run. I give them two or three seconds because they were running R compounds and I was on streets. Given more tire, I think within 3 seconds of a stock Corvette with a good driver is possible on a 45 second course.

 

[whitess]

Turbo6inky,
Mark (Marcus@ montecarloss.com) now has the Tall LBJ's for G Body's. Look in the Vendors section of the forums. They're made by Howe.
Larry.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Turbo6inKY

The front suspension sucks.

I was reading something the other day and it was mentioning GM liking to use a narrower then normal distance between the inner tie rod ends so that when the steering was turned it also helped to induce understeer. I haven't followed up on the logic but it was an interesting comment. I'm so hacked off about having the car so good, that I might just design some parts by guestimating, and trying them. I wish I had the room to get a front clip, and build a front end fixture to really figure it all out. The kitchen already looks like a science lab., so maybe setting up a suspension clip in the living room wouldn't be too bad, LOL.

The rear coil-overs really changed the car, ALOT. Having a true progressive spring rate is incredible. Depending on what I do in the front end next, it'll be converting that end to coil-overs also.

 

[Turbo6inKY]

Originally posted by whitess
Turbo6inky,
Mark (Marcus@ montecarloss.com) now has the Tall LBJ's for G Body's. Look in the Vendors section of the forums. They're made by Howe.
Larry.

OOoo, good news!

I was reading something the other day and it was mentioning GM liking to use a narrower then normal distance between the inner tie rod ends so that when the steering was turned it also helped to induce understeer.

It wouldn't surprise me. I blame Ralph Nader. His "unsafe at any speed" campaign against the Corvair pretty much killed cars with any kind of neutral handling from GM. A generous dose of toe out should be able to band-aid the issue without going to extremes on front-end rebuilds. Just put some money away for tires, because you'll go through a lot of them.

A good threaded body coilover setup on the front could be done reasonable and cheaply, just needs some welding.

 

[Ormand]

As Turbo6inky notes above, the Regal is very large, very heavy, and has a high center of gravity and a fairly ancient suspension which was designed for "safe" understeer. So to make it handle like the better imports, RX8, or Accura, for ex, requires major weight reduction, and major suspension redesign. But as the Monte guys have shown, you can make it a lot better without a total rework.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand
As Turbo6inky notes above, the Regal is very large, very heavy, and has a high center of gravity and a fairly ancient suspension which was designed for "safe" understeer. So to make it handle like the better imports, RX8, or Accura, for ex, requires major weight reduction, and major suspension redesign. But as the Monte guys have shown, you can make it a lot better without a total rework.

Looked at some of the foreign cars shipping weights lately?. They've been getting heavy lately.

A 2L 4 cyl or 3L v6 vs a well developed 3.8?.

Like you mention alot better without alot of work.

While short, and narrow works on tight low speed stuff, long and wide at higher speeds offers alot of inherant stability.

Not to mention not having to deal with torque steer, and the other really bad problems with a FWD'r. To this day, I've never driven a car that puts the drive HP, Braking, and steering all thru the front end, that I feel comfortable to drive at anything near the limit, other then in very controlled circumstances.

And the luxo barges are getting worse in some ways then the GNs.

Ya, a $60K Porsche takes some skills to outdo, but they can be put in there place. And yes, a Nitrous'd and propaned Viper is maybe more then a GN can handle, but that's getting into some really serious money. But those of these examples aren't what you'll be seeing other then once in a great while, and their owners usually aren't interested in playing since it's an ego thing for most of them, from what I've seen.

 

[lyonsd]

Originally posted by XLR8
I do know how to make it run in the 1/4 like an import - just pull off 2 plug wires.

You'd probably need to pull off more than two.

Originally posted by salvageV6
My car handles like an import just by putting my cap on backwards and slumping down stupidly in my seat with one arm on top of the wheel and the other fondling the shift lever.

The hard part is driving stoopidly.

Don't forget to cock your head to one side.

 

[Ormand]

Renthorin said"

I remember an article from the 80's or early 90's where they took a Monte SS and put on a Hotchkiss system. It pulled over .9 g's on the skid pad

It is "Project G Force", and it is here:Hot Rod's "Project G Force"
It was a complete build up, but the suspension and brakes part was not too far out. They did use the taller front spindles, and Baer 13 front discs.