Rear Upper & Lower Adjustable control arms

[killer69]

Since you use the expression "we" I'm gonna presume you're working for Speedtech? Would you like to be a vendor on here then? There are some rules you need to follow if you're not a vendor. Please don't misunderstand me here but advertising isn't free here after all. Either contact SGRIM or I can send him a note to contact you. Thanks.

Certainly have sgrim send the info to me so i too can have my name in Blue..... as long as it is reasonable,

 

[killer69]

Odd question, considering his bars are designed primarilly for autocross/roadrace applications, and NOT drag racing. There's a reason drag racers run boxed/solid bars, to reduce articulation. Scot's bars are designed to enhance articulation.

Wondering why you would NOT want them to articulate? my opinion on this is... (remember it's MY opinion) if you let the trailing arms Articulate, you remove (OR at least reduce) the bind in the suspension,(the G body rear suspension is a mess to begin with.) therefore you also remove the unpredictablilty of your suspension set up, ALL the books and profesionals will tell you that you MUST remove any bind in the system, this is why drag race suspensions use heim joints. look at the 4 link Wishbone locator, that slides & rolls. after you have eliminated the bind then and only then can you begin to setup and tune your suspension so the shocks and springs can to their intended job. also then you can tune your anti roll bar, and actually use it to help fine tune the preload to help control the launch. Without the articulation, as the car rolls it will change the way the tires are loaded and make the launch, as well as the stopping at the other end unpredictable.

 

[killer69]

Killer, I don't post in the suspension section any longer because of this reason. If your name isn't blue, we aren't allowed to post information on a non vendor product. Its not worth the time because it will only turn into a battle.

P.s. Your car is freaking awesome dude! Love it!

Thanks for the comment,
OH it looks like you could have a few more GN's !! lol

 

[jdpolzin]

I'm pretty certain that DSE as well as the other companies with this style of arm have thought the design out enough to hold up to drag race applications. Without allowing the rear suspension to articulate at the track, your only asking it to bind and get put into the wall. I would like to know the HP/stress rating on these arms to compare them to my existing arms.

 

[charlief1]

Certainly have sgrim send the info to me so i too can have my name in Blue..... as long as it is reasonable,

Sent him a note and he should be in contact with you soon.

 

[jdpolzin]

Killer, Its all good. Yeah I've owned darn near 30 Grand nationals and have built far more for other fellow GN owners. I'm getting a little burned out on them for now! We should get in touch, I have few questions on my AFX spindles and some geometery ideas.

 

[scot w.]

I'm pretty certain that DSE as well as the other companies with this style of arm have thought the design out enough to hold up to drag race applications. Without allowing the rear suspension to articulate at the track, your only asking it to bind and get put into the wall. I would like to know the HP/stress rating on these arms to compare them to my existing arms.

Well you pretty much answered your own question from post #18.. What is the HP/Stress rating of your existing arms?

Scot W.

 

[scot w.]

Scott, how much horsepower are these rated for? Have they been tested at the track launching of a T brake? Are the greasable or not? By your last post, I'm assuming they aren't? How much for just the uppers?

We will have the whole G-Body rear suspension on display at BG why don't you swing by and take a look at it?


SW.

 

[jdpolzin]

Well I guess I wont get a straight answer so ill pass. My current lower arms are rated for 3000hp. I can't get an answer from the manufactureer of my upper arms so they will be coming off.

I wont be in Bowling Green this year.

 

[scot w.]

Well I guess I wont get a straight answer so ill pass. My current lower arms are rated for 3000hp. I can't get an answer from the manufactureer of my upper arms so they will be coming off.

I wont be in Bowling Green this year.

Let me answer your questions the best I can straight from DSE... DSE says that since this is a product that they designed, patented, and manufacture even if it's 10 years down the road and one or all of your swivel links happen to go bad, get loosened or whatever just send it in and they will rebuild it for you at NO COST! Who else will offer that on a race car?

1) how much horsepower are these rated for? They were never rated per say but they have several customers with 800+ HP pounding on their cars every weekend Dragracing, Auto-x and Roadracing and yet to have a problem!

2) Have they been tested at the track launching of a T brake? No they haven't been tested launching off a trans brake but some of their customers do use them for dragracing and still not a problem yet!

3) Are the greasable or not? By your last post, I'm assuming they aren't? No you read it correctly, they are assembled at the factory and pre-packed with grease so they are maintenance free for the customer.

4) How much for just the uppers? Not sold separately!

SW.

 

[jdpolzin]

Thanks for the responce. That's what I was looking for. It is nice that they will stand behind them as the manufacturers. Do they plan to sell just the uppers in the future?

 

[scot w.]

Thanks for the responce. That's what I was looking for. It is nice that they will stand behind them as the manufacturers. Do they plan to sell just the uppers in the future?

Not sure, Give them a call and ask maybe if they receive enough calls about it they might think twice...

Scot W.

 

[marleyskater420]

Scot,
What is the expected life out of the swivel joints guessing its a bearing of sorts is there any lubrication needed?
Chris

UMI has double adjustable upper CA's that have swivel end that work really well. They don't require any lubrication at all. They also adjust really easy. They're exactly like DSE's (I wonder who came up with that design first?) You have 2 nuts with an adjuster in the middle, loosen the nut and tighten or loosen the adjuster and you lengthen or shorten the arm. It took us 2 minutes to adjust the pinion angle on the car with these arms. Kinda cool.

The UMI's are chromemoly though, I don't know if the DSE's are better. I just know my new arms were 190 for the chrome moly double adjustables. The DSE's look cool, but they also look exactly like mine.

I attached a pic of my arms to show you what I meant.

 

[scot w.]

UMI has double adjustable upper CA's that have swivel end that work really well. They don't require any lubrication at all. They also adjust really easy. They're exactly like DSE's (I wonder who came up with that design first?) You have 2 nuts with an adjuster in the middle, loosen the nut and tighten or loosen the adjuster and you lengthen or shorten the arm. It took us 2 minutes to adjust the pinion angle on the car with these arms. Kinda cool.

The UMI's are chromemoly though, I don't know if the DSE's are better. I just know my new arms were 190 for the chrome moly double adjustables. The DSE's look cool, but they also look exactly like mine.

I attached a pic of my arms to show you what I meant.

Correction so others will not be mislead.... These "Are Not" exactly like the DSE upper rear control arms in fact they are completely different in every way and I will explain...

UMI uses a "Hime Joint" at the body end which tend to cause drive line vibrations, Bind, and they do not allow the rear end to articulate fully or properly. Yes the little ball inside the hime joint swivels a little bit VS the 360 degree of DSE's patented "Swivel Link" HUGE difference and a completely different design!!

UMI also uses the very common double nut adjustment used on Many adjustable control arms....Where as the DSE adjustable control arms are adjustable using just one jam nut allowing you to turn the lower body of the control arm to make your adjustments due to it swiveling at the other end 360 degrees with a revolutionary internal spindle which allows the rear end to move fluid and smoothly keeping the rear tires planted...The important thing to remember here is that the swivel link ALWAYS swivels while even tightened down on the car allowing your whole rear end to articulate properly without bind!

Scot W.

 

[marleyskater420]

Correction so others will not be mislead.... These "Are Not" exactly like the DSE upper rear control arms in fact they are completely different in every way and I will explain...

UMI uses a "Hime Joint" at the body end which tend to cause drive line vibrations, Bind, and they do not allow the rear end to articulate fully or properly. Yes the little ball inside the hime joint swivels a little bit VS the 360 degree of DSE's patented "Swivel Link" HUGE difference and a completely different design!!

UMI also uses the very common double nut adjustment used on Many adjustable control arms....Where as the DSE adjustable control arms are adjustable using just one jam nut allowing you to turn the lower body of the control arm to make your adjustments due to it swiveling at the other end 360 degrees with a revolutionary internal spindle which allows the rear end to move fluid and smoothly keeping the rear tires planted...The important thing to remember here is that the swivel link ALWAYS swivels while even tightened down on the car allowing your whole rear end to articulate properly without bind!

Scot W.

It seems like they both allow for quite a bit of articulation. I couldn't see the need for your rearend to swivel 360 degrees though.. the UMI moves a good 90 degrees or so from side to side. How much more is your rear end going to articulate than 90 degrees? (I really don't know, but I just cant picture the need for your arms to swivel 360 degrees)

You loosen both nuts and adjust the center "nut". How is using 1 nut and only adjusting the lower length superior to being able to adjust both the lower length and upper length of the CA?

How will a hime joint not swivel? I put one side on and when it was bolted to the car the thing still articulated a crazy amount. I'm not picturing how an arm that articulated 360deg is better than one that articulates 90 or 100 deg when the rear of the car will only articulate 40 or 50 deg? (I don't know exactly how much the rear articulates, but I can't see it more than 40-50deg)

 

[nonosv6]

so are you saying the arms swivel in the end link itself?

 

[scot w.]

It seems like they both allow for quite a bit of articulation. I couldn't see the need for your rearend to swivel 360 degrees though.. the UMI moves a good 90 degrees or so from side to side. How much more is your rear end going to articulate than 90 degrees? (I really don't know, but I just cant picture the need for your arms to swivel 360 degrees)

You loosen both nuts and adjust the center "nut". How is using 1 nut and only adjusting the lower length superior to being able to adjust both the lower length and upper length of the CA?

How will a hime joint not swivel? I put one side on and when it was bolted to the car the thing still articulated a crazy amount. I'm not picturing how an arm that articulated 360deg is better than one that articulates 90 or 100 deg when the rear of the car will only articulate 40 or 50 deg? (I don't know exactly how much the rear articulates, but I can't see it more than 40-50deg)

1) You said both UMI & DSE upper control arms were exactly the same, they are far from exactly the same!

2) Both designs are completely different with completely different technology at the body end of the control arm!

3) I NEVER said the hime joint "won't swivel" However they "swivel" in completely different places! The UMI swivels at the hime joint "Bolt location" where as the DSE swivels at the "ARM" and Not the bolt location giving you a smoother and much better articulation...

4) I Never said using "One" jam nut was superior over two jam nuts, and as it makes no difference if you can adjust the upper & lower half of a control arm! As long as it's adjustable in the end the overall length of the arm is what matters when setting pinion angle.. I was Simply just pointing out the difference between the two!

I had my car on a two post lift with the wheels hanging, springs removed, sway bar removed which leaves only the upper & lower control arms as the limiting factor and grab one tire and move it up and down and the movement was very minimal with my old crap on the car, then once the DSE upper & Lowers were installed I done it again and was completely shocked by the amount of articulation between the old junk and these new control arms. I could literally shove the tire up into the wheel well very easily and without a single bit of bind.. So next time your car is up on a two post lift try this and see just how easy it is to move and how much travel you have. You might be surprised...



Scot W.

 

[scot w.]

so are you saying the arms swivel in the end link itself?

If you are referring to me that is correct, they swivel at the end link which is Before the bushing & Bolt on a internal spindle!

 

[marleyskater420]

1) You said both UMI & DSE upper control arms were exactly the same, they are far from exactly the same!

2) Both designs are completely different with completely different technology at the body end of the control arm!

3) I NEVER said the hime joint "won't swivel" However they "swivel" in completely different places! The UMI swivels at the hime joint "Bolt location" where as the DSE swivels at the "ARM" and Not the bolt location giving you a smoother and much better articulation...

4) I Never said using "One" jam nut was superior over two jam nuts, and as it makes no difference if you can adjust the upper & lower half of a control arm! As long as it's adjustable in the end the overall length of the arm is what matters when setting pinion angle.. I was Simply just pointing out the difference between the two!

I had my car on a two post lift with the wheels hanging, springs removed, sway bar removed which leaves only the upper & lower control arms as the limiting factor and grab one tire and move it up and down and the movement was very minimal with my old crap on the car, then once the DSE upper & Lowers were installed I done it again and was completely shocked by the amount of articulation between the old junk and these new control arms. I could literally shove the tire up into the wheel well very easily and without a single bit of bind.. So next time your car is up on a two post lift try this and see just how easy it is to move and how much travel you have. You might be surprised...



Scot W.

Ah gotcha!

IMO, I don't really see a big gain in the difference in area of articulation provided the hime joint does not limit any movement.

Also, I actually did have just the upper and lower CA's on the other week...well 1 upper on and both lowers, and let me tell you it was a pain in the BUTT trying to get it to line up there was so much movement in the rearend!! I mean good for me that it moves that freely, but sitting on cement at 930 at night with 3 guys trying to move the rearend gets annoying quick!

Now I know to not take off both uppers at the same time...yeeaa...

 

[turboc87gn]

Well at least theres finally a discussion about rear control arms that went somwhere....This is the issue i was having and i couldnt get much advice i have iceman control arms that have the same heim joint in them on the uppers fully adjustable but im going to sell them for this reason....they will work great on a race car but for a car that sees the street,you gotta have a greasable fitting imho....Metal to metal constantly moving will eventually cause slop in the joint and clunking and banging....In a drag race situation they dont see as much use and movment i had a set of hotchkis adj bars fall into my lap not i just have to find a set of delrin bushings for the rear end....