PTC converter

[John Wilde]

Brian,

That is interesting information, since PTE does not do compressor maps you will not really know where the turbo needs to be to flow the air.
I have the .63 on my 6265 RS, I just have to get it on before I can give you
any feed back. My school of thought with getting the .63 is my motor with the stock cam and lower rpm range would make more power under the curve with the smaller turbine housing.

Well, I found through testing earlier in the year, the car was about 1mph faster in the 1/4 with the old TE-63-1 turbo I have. So, now with the new converter I would like to see if this still holds true.:wink:

The 6265 has a 85 PTE exhaust housing and the 63 has a 63 PTE housing. I thought I would see more top end out of the 6265 than I have. Is it possible that the 85 is to much for my mild combo? And, would I have been better off to go with a 63ex on the 6265? That is a little bit of what I am after here. I know it is not an accurate comparison, but, I want to check it out for curiousity. Since it is basically a "free" mod at this point.

Brian

 

[John Wilde]

John,
I actually do have 275/60/15 28in tall Hoosier drag radials. They are 28in tall, and I get - (negative) slip numbers as well. :smile:
The car was in third through the run. The 4th gear #`s fudge my awesome slip % to death.
Is it even possible to have a converter have that type of slip %?

Brian

Is your speedo signal off from the height of your tires?
Meaning are you looking at the correct MPH vrs in your logs?

 

[brian]

Is your speedo signal off from the height of your tires?
Meaning are you looking at the correct MPH vrs in your logs?

The mph I have posted is from the timeslip.

I think I should have possibly gone with the 63 ex hausing due to what you are thinking.

 

[John Wilde]

The mph I have posted is from the timeslip.

I think I should have possibly gone with the 63 ex hausing due to what you are thinking.

Brian,

I am not doubting the MPH on the time slip is 125.
What I am saying is if your speedo is not reading correctly then
that is the same bad MPH that your data logger is getting.
This would mean that you could be referencing the wrong RPM in the log if
the MPH is off. This would make your slip numbers incorrect.
Does that make sense or did I forget my medicine this morning?

 

[John Wilde]

BTW - If you have time could you post the incrementals?

 

[bison]

My $.02. Unfortunately like John stated Precision doesnt produce Compressor maps. If they did most would find they are way way over turboed. The compressor map only tells the tale of the compressor side anyway. You hit backpressure on any of the newly available 3 bolt stuff way before you can maximize the comp wheel. In reality its not even close. Its especially true when you have alky injection cooling off the charge air. Going 114mph in the eighth i see a max inlet air temp that is 11-12 degrees above ambient. That is with an old cast 66 compressor wheel. Every 10 degree drop in inlet air temp is about 1% more power. The hot side is the big problem. Major restriction there even with unopened long block applications that are making 500+hp. Also i have never seen a car lose peak power with a bigger a/r while running the same boost, timing, and a/f. You may lose spool (which is a converter issue) but not power. Typically the bigger a/r will gain more out the back end. Again unfortunately most dont have enough spring on their heads to run high boost. As far as Brians data on the slip it sounds like there is an error somewhere. Id measure the tire height installed on the car first then look at the last frame of WOT rpm and then use the mph on the slip. I would not trust the powerlogger mph at those speeds. A couple % error will throw converter slip off a lot.

 

[bison]

Brian please post the installed measured tire height and last frame of WOT rpm so we can look at the slip % further. It cant be negative. Probably under 5% though

 

[TurboBob]

the ecm has a huge lag filter in its mph calculation.


about a year ago I put in a high-speed MPH calculator in the software that attempts to fix this, and its better. but its hard to calibrate.

Brian, are you running a stock speedo drive gear or something else?

B

 

[brian]

Brian,

I am not doubting the MPH on the time slip is 125.
What I am saying is if your speedo is not reading correctly then
that is the same bad MPH that your data logger is getting.
This would mean that you could be referencing the wrong RPM in the log if
the MPH is off. This would make your slip numbers incorrect.
Does that make sense or did I forget my medicine this morning?

John,
This rpm is off the Scanmaster well clear of the traps. I do not own any other logging tool. I have the bad azz "dual Scanmasters" stacked, and the one was on rpm. As I mentioned above, this was well clear of the mph timer.:smile:
The tire may be a hair taller, but is standard fair 275/60/15, 28 in tall. Unless it grows like a slick?

 

[brian]

the ecm has a huge lag filter in its mph calculation.


about a year ago I put in a high-speed MPH calculator in the software that attempts to fix this, and its better. but its hard to calibrate.

Brian, are you running a stock speedo drive gear or something else?

B

Still using the stock speedo equipment.
PM is coming on the 6776.

 

[Pronto]

My $.02. Unfortunately like John stated Precision doesnt produce Compressor maps. If they did most would find they are way way over turboed. The compressor map only tells the tale of the compressor side anyway. You hit backpressure on any of the newly available 3 bolt stuff way before you can maximize the comp wheel. In reality its not even close. Its especially true when you have alky injection cooling off the charge air. Going 114mph in the eighth i see a max inlet air temp that is 11-12 degrees above ambient. That is with an old cast 66 compressor wheel. Every 10 degree drop in inlet air temp is about 1% more power. The hot side is the big problem. Major restriction there even with unopened long block applications that are making 500+hp. Also i have never seen a car lose peak power with a bigger a/r while running the same boost, timing, and a/f. You may lose spool (which is a converter issue) but not power. Typically the bigger a/r will gain more out the back end. Again unfortunately most dont have enough spring on their heads to run high boost. As far as Brians data on the slip it sounds like there is an error somewhere. Id measure the tire height installed on the car first then look at the last frame of WOT rpm and then use the mph on the slip. I would not trust the powerlogger mph at those speeds. A couple % error will throw converter slip off a lot.

So could compansate for the back pressure with a cam with more intake duration say somethink like a 212/206 with the new billet turbos? Of course that means a cam change from stock.

 

[bison]

So could compansate for the back pressure with a cam with more intake duration say somethink like a 212/206 with the new billet turbos? Of course that means a cam change from stock.

You cant compensate with a cam change. You wont hit a serious backpressure problem where it will mean a whole lot till your over 700hp even with a 3 bolt. Still costing hp but not causing boost fall off up top. Only a couple guys on here ever come close to maxing the compressor wheels. Not even cast ones are being run anywhere near the edge. More compressor wheel will do nothing for power if the engine cant use the air. You may have noticed that a lot of guys are saying the billet turbos are flowing a lot more air than the old wheels they replaced. This is total BS. They should be saying that the billet wheels will most likely flow a lot more air if the engine is able to use it. Its still a hypothesis because there are no compressor maps or data posted to show they are increasing the mass flow over the old wheels though it is very likely they will make a lot more power in hard run applications where the backpressure is eliminated. If the engine isnt flowing the air your not going to make more power. If you have one car with a 63 cast wheel and one with a 71 billet with the exact same engine if the inlet air temp is the same on both setups at the same rpm you are gaining nothing from the compressor. 26 psi@ 75* with a cast wheel is the same hp as 26psi @75* inlet temp with a billet 71mm. That is if all else is the same. The big gains are on the exhaust side. Look at John Crawford with a 6776 3 bolt running 140+mph. cast compressor and small p trim turbine. Both are dinosaur wheels by todays standards but they are flowing more air than anyone has posted with these new wheels.

 

[Quik Six]

Brian must be running a really tall DR 29 or 30 inches tall.
If you run 125mph with 3.42 and 28 inch tall tires you have -slip%.
Can you give us more details please?

John: I cross the the line at 123 at 5700 RPM's in 3rd gear with an unlocked LU, 3.42 gears and 10.5x 28" slicks and that computes to 13.19% slippage according to TCI charts. I will see how the convertor I have performs at the track using LU and if it doesn't work as expected then it will probably be replaced with a PTC 9.5 NL.

BTW, I have a 6265 journal bearing with 63 ratio "S" cover and recently dynoed it on brand new Mustang dyno. Pulled 560 Hp and 724#of torque at 4000 RPM's. Convertor was locked with boost at 28#'s. Used an untuned SD chip from Eric and found several mistakes later. (My computer wasn't working right so I didn't get good recordings.) Timing was at default of 20/18 which is 3 to 5 degrees lower than it should have been. A/F ratio was 10.8 which I had set in program which is probably a bit rich. I believe 625 to 650 RWHP and torque of 800+ is attainable on 101 fuel and methanol. This amuses me as PTE chart shows this turbo capable of supporting 685 HP at the flywheel. Hope this puts to rest some of your concerns about the 6265.

Phil Engle

 

[John Wilde]

Phil,

Thanks for the response.
I never doubted the power this turbo can make.
However the numbers Brian posted are not possible.
His RPM must have been several hundred off.
With his tire height, mph and claimed RPM going through the traps you get negative slip. (-1.07%)
He was looking at a scanmaster and using that for the RPM at 125 MPH.
I would guess there would be a margin of error in both time and distance.

 

[bison]

John: I cross the the line at 123 at 5700 RPM's in 3rd gear with an unlocked LU, 3.42 gears and 10.5x 28" slicks and that computes to 13.19% slippage according to TCI charts. I will see how the convertor I have performs at the track using LU and if it doesn't work as expected then it will probably be replaced with a PTC 9.5 NL.

BTW, I have a 6265 journal bearing with 63 ratio "S" cover and recently dynoed it on brand new Mustang dyno. Pulled 560 Hp and 724#of torque at 4000 RPM's. Convertor was locked with boost at 28#'s. Used an untuned SD chip from Eric and found several mistakes later. (My computer wasn't working right so I didn't get good recordings.) Timing was at default of 20/18 which is 3 to 5 degrees lower than it should have been. A/F ratio was 10.8 which I had set in program which is probably a bit rich. I believe 625 to 650 RWHP and torque of 800+ is attainable on 101 fuel and methanol. This amuses me as PTE chart shows this turbo capable of supporting 685 HP at the flywheel. Hope this puts to rest some of your concerns about the 6265.

Phil Engle

Why didnt you lock on the quarter passes? Your slip may be even higher from tire growth. Fwiw 800hp at the flywheel will net 142.5mph trap speeds with a good converter and proper gearing.

 

[Quik Six]

Brian: This was first run to the track with this combo and I was being overly cautious to make sure that boost was controllable and fueling was okay before I locked it up. Boost was not and fueling was way lean. Raced my Ford at Noble at about 3/4 throttle for the last 2/3's of the track and still got a "W" for Team Buick. Dyno pulll was with TT SD chip with default timing of 20/18 and A/F ratio set at 10.8.

142 MPH? My car is a lot like me, old and overweight. 3680#'s with me in it so the numbers I get are mid 10's at 132 MPH. With some very good 60 fts., maybe dip down in the high 10.30's at same MPH. As we've discussed, boost control is still a problem but I'll have that fixed before the track closes for the year.

Phil Engle