New Bowling Green RACING CLASS 2007

[SGRIM]

I think you are going to severly limit any car count with those rules. That is like having the show cars come race.... I sure wouldn't take either of my 2 bone stock cars and run them......

Good luck, I will help in anyway possible either way!

 

[GNocide]

thats the idea-concours show cars going fast and whipping lsx cars without scarificing the integerity of the car.

not my idea but ill take the money

 

[GNocide]

link to official rule thread
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/na...o/211907-bone-stock-class-official-rules.html

 

[JayC]

Id like to go on record as being the first to say those rules suck.

 

[GNocide]

well-then

put up your own $1000
and
make your own class and rules instead of whining and bitching

 

[JayC]

How can you seriously think that is a good set of rules? This must be your first attempt at this, I probably shouldnt be so hard on you.

Let's just look at a couple of the rules.

Stock TTY bolts - Who is going to put heads on an engine and use stock bolts? No studs I can see (Which even that I think is stupid but whatever) but stock TTY bolts? No logos on the heads? So ported heads are allowed as long as you dont use Champions or anyone else that stamps their logo on the end of the heads?

Power adders allowed as long as cant find them - Huh? So if I can hide a nitrous kit to where you cant find it, I can run it? Trust me, it can be done and I seriously doubt you'd find it.

Stock oil filler tube and cap - Again, WTF? you going to disallow the thicker gaskets too so all the stock valve cover cars can have oil running all down them onto the exhaust? How many people even still HAVE a stock oil fill tube?

2004R with no external mods except for 2nd servo, stock pan and driveshaft---loop ok, any convertor or transbrake as long as it is not visible under or inside the car, - So transmission coolers arent allowed? You can run a trans brake but you cant run a cooler to make your $3000 transmission live.

Car must sit at =/- one inch of stock ride height (this would be ________ from road surface to frame rail) - Do you really think a 20 year old car is not going to be sagging at this point? And changing the springs is most likely going to put it outside your ride height limit, which you dont list, BTW so everyone gets to guess what it is when they show up and get disqualified.

Will the turbos be checked with a go/no go gauge? Doesnt sound like a stock turbo is required. Stock TTY bolts are tho but you can run whatever stock appearing turbo you want?

You also forgot to mention the valve cover vent to the stock turbo, which I assume must be in place since the car was delivered that way.

How about "Air box must be STOCK"? if you're going to let people run MAFless, you can gut a stock MAF, run without an airfilter, cut out the bottom of the airbox to where you cant see it and essentially the stock airbox is zero restriction.

So much more I could pick apart here but whats the point. It's obvious you have in your mind how you want this class to be. It looks like each car will require about an hour of teching according to your rules since the build sheet will have to be compared, the ride height measured and each engine bay gone over with a fine tooth comb to find those hidden nitrous systems.

This class should be exactly what you want. A bunch of slow, stock cars out there battling it out for $1000.00. There is no incentive to put together a car under these rules because some of the rules are so outlandish, it's a waste of time. Add into that that there is less than 2 months to do it and it aint gonna happen.

 

[GNocide]

How can I seriously think this is a good set of rules???
Let me start with answers to your objections for starters------who is going
to use TTY head bolts???------I do it all the time and so would just about
anyone serious about restoring a GN to the condition where it is the most
valuable-----its funny about car math---take a bone stock low mile GN worth
25 grand that nearly everyone wants to buy----add about 5 grand worth of
"upgrades" and what do you have???----a car worth about 20 grand that's
harder to sell-----I know there are EXCEPTIONS but generally you know I am
right------you don't have to buy the bolts from GM----the same vendor that
provides them to GM also sells them to several vendors such as fel-pro and
they have identical head stampings------and used properly they don't really
work all that bad----a lot of us have gone 11's and some have even gone 10's
with unopened motors------do you really think that those high 6 figure
original HEMIS that we see sell on Barrett-Jackson have ARP
fasteners?????------I have no problems with Champion heads or anyone elses
for that matter------but I just feel that if the car is in a bone stock
class its heads shouldn't have an emblem engraved into them advertising that
they have been ported-------I used to do test reports for several magazines
and I can tell you one thing for sure------if you think that most of the
cars delivered to mags for testing are EXACTLY like the one you can buy you
are badly fooled----most mags get what we call in the publishing business
"lab queens"------but at least they "look stock"---------I don't care if the
heads are ported I just don't want it to appear that way--------power
adders???-----I have no problem AS LONG AS IT IS TOTALLY
INVISIBLE------think you can hide it from me???--------have at it, I wish
you luck------years ago I had a car with nitrous hid in the lifter
galley------the jets fed the lower part of each intake runner in the head
itself------Ruggles did the head work for me and if you are ever at my shop
I'll be glad to show them to you-----but I still had to have a line feeding
the block and I had to hide the bottle behind the glove box----not easy but
it can be done----the ford and chevy guys couldn't find it but I'll bet I
could --------I would be proud to let ford and chevy world see a "bone stock
appearing" GN running 10's-------let em scratch their heads-------oil filler
cap???----I don't have a problem with a thicker gasket as long as it is
black and APPEARS STOCK--------how many guys have an original filler cap???
------everybody that was smart enough to hold onto them when they "upgraded"
their cars should still have them------those that didn't can find one on
e-bay if they want to run this class-------we weren't going to disallow
tranny coolers but we were going to require that they were mounted "GNX"
style and no larger than 11X12" and use the original coolant lines like the
GNX------perhaps the rule version you saw didn't contain that
entry--------the actual ride height wasn't specified for a reason-----I am
still working on that------I have a lot of low mileage original cars with
springs that still spec within original values------but since there were
several spring combinations that could have ended up in these cars I am
still working out the numbers-------at any rate it will have a reasonable
allowance for variation------the INTENT is that the car will appear stock
and will obviously rule out certain tire sizes that are nowhere near
stock-------I really don't have a problem with upgraded turbos as long as
they appear stock and have stock inlets and outlets and HIDE under the
original cover------I don't care if the car contains a F.A.S.T. or other
modern management system as long as it is hid out of sight and underhood
wiring doesn't give it away---------if I can't see it the ford and chevy
guys can't either------valve cover to stock turbo???---it is mentioned in
the term "stock inlet bell with vent intact" as well as a 50 state VISUAL
inspection-----I am a licensed NC state inspector and I clearly know what
that means regarding removal of smog related equipment and if I have to
explain it clearer please let me know-------as for the MAF being
gutted???------I have no problem as long as it still has the original wiring
but I think the removal of the lower part of the air box might be a problem
since it is so easy to see-------and you would have to hide the holes very
carefully if you went that route--------an hour of tech?????-------I sort of
doubt it since a ten second glance under the hood of 99% of the TR's out
there would be all that is required------it only takes one thing to
eliminate it-----as for the 6 cars that are left I think it can be done in
10 or less-------if me or Dennis Kirban can't spot it in 10 minutes I think
we can probably call it "stock"------besides I figure we do it NASCAR
style------quick check before the racing and a good thorough checkout of the
winner before its official-----that way we should only have spend real time
with one car ------as for the comment "exactly what I want"------that would
be some really fast stock looking TR's --------what do I
expect???------first year we might not do much better than low 13's------but
I am willing to up the $ for next year and was even thinking on adding $100
bucks for every tenth below some certain time-------no incentive???------you
don't know me-----I CAN make it worth someone's while and fully intend
to-----personally I believe this could eventually be one of the most popular
classes and result in some real stock looking Z06 killers--------less than 2
months???------I admit that is not much time but how much time does it take
for someone to drive their car from the concours lane over to the
track???------one minute??-----perhaps two-------seems well worth it for a
grand.............RC

 

[SGRIM]

I think that clarify's things alot better as far as explaining the intent of the class.

Mr. RC if you have some free time I would like to speak with you a little further on this.

Thanks!

 

[JayC]

I cant read that.. it makes my eyes hurt.

Good luck with your class.

 

[GNocide]

I cant read that.. it makes my eyes hurt.

Good luck with your class.

thats a shame, it was for you ..
and people who have tech or motive questions about the new race class

as far as luck this will be something to build on over the next couple of years.

 

[HyperV6]

Good Luck with the Class

I was very interested in this race class until I saw the rules. I must agree with JayC about the rules. I think only 2 or 3 cars will show for this class especially since the race is only 2 months away. Most all turbo cars that are driven to the Nat's won't meet the current rules. Who is going to take a truely stock/original car and make the mods to run/win this class. Actually, any true stock car might win it since no one else will enter the class. For many others who is going to take parts off their cars like extra braces or boxed control arms... But, the rules allow any injector, stock appearing turbo, and stock appearing downpipe. I believe this class should be based around the majority of street driven 12 second recipe cars (see gnttype.org).

any chip
any air intake
stock GM downpipe with a test pipe and any cat back exhaust
upgraded fuel pump, wiring, and adjustable regulator
require stk engine, heads, turbo, intercooler, injectors
require stk wheels with a true radial tire (specify the max size)

The cars would run mid to low 12's.

These are the upgrades most people make on a basic street car - not race car. I really appreciate someone trying to get a new class for more stock type cars but the rules aren't very consistant. It would be nice to have a heads up class for the common masses. I would love to see a class with 20+ cars. But, with the current rules it just isn't going to happen.

Craig

 

[GNocide]

take a truely stock/original car and make the mods to run/win this class. Actually, any true stock car might win it

any chip
any air intake
stock GM downpipe with a test pipe and any cat back exhaust
upgraded fuel pump, wiring,
require stk engine, heads, turbo, intercooler, injectors
require stk wheels with a true radial tire (specify the max size)
I really appreciate someone trying to get a new class for more stock type cars but the rules aren't very consistant. It would be nice to have a heads up class for the common masses.

this is a truley stock appeaing class- not for the common masses-big dollar original appearing-not poster cars for "xyz" performance board sponsor.
.
the rules are very consistant , clear and striaght foreward.
lets address the things you want in a class
chip?
i dont care if you use a chip at all or the factory cpu for that matter-f.a.s.t. = allowed(can you cleanly hide it- i can)
stock appearing 109,& heads without logos(grind the logos off)
any injector size.
dot tires like drag radials okay.

stock wheels huh? ttype, gnx or gn??? see what your asking here?-thats not fair or consistant

tire size will only be limited by ride height.

i hope this clears it up more because what im seeing from jay and the masses is they believe they have stock appearing cars-but do not by real standards and are offended (-left out)-whatever.

the truth is the stock appearing-
what can i hide /do/create/put back later to not destroy the integerity of a high dollar original car people have been left out.

 

[SGRIM]

i hope this clears it up more because what im seeing from jay and the masses is they believe they have stock appearing cars-but do not by real standards and are offended (-left out)-whatever.

the truth is the stock appearing-
what can i hide /do/create/put back later to not destroy the integerity of a high dollar original car people have been left out.

The first paragraph quoted above; No one is offended or feels left out. If you are referring to Jay and I specifically we are going to BG wide open classes or not. We are planning to set off a few bombs, so no skin off of our nose.... I have cars that would fit this class in a days worth of work. People are just pointing out things from a racers point of view. You must realize any time you post something like this it will be discussed.


Far as the second paragraph; If it ain't stock it ain't stock I don't care what it appears to be..........


If you would like to discuss this with me just PM me for the number!

Thanks,

Shane

 

[GNocide]

shane im just trying to clearify the reason and purpose of the class-not directed towards you or craig or 36 other people that want different rules.

i dont sell anything or have a product to make money off of nor do i care to; so nothing is geared for what has been seen so far.

say what you want about stock.... or stock appearing.
a car racing under these rules could/would win a car show and sell for more money than anything otherwise.

these are the rules to get the money,play by the rules.
thats it.

 

[flyin3]

i see both sides of this disscusion....the rules are tight...but hey its his class and his money he is putting up so deal with it or dont race in this class...but on the other hand...i think there could be an allowance of say $500.00 worth of upgrades...not neccesarliy all performance but face it 20 years is a long time things have happened to the car im sure that needed to be replaced and why replace it with something stock when you can make it better in the mean time....i think a certain limit on how much money in upgrades could result in a huge intrest/turnout for this class....someone could show up with a totally stock looking car with alky injection and turn an 11 second time slip...just my .02 cents

 

[Jugular]

As Flyin3 said "someone could show up with a totally stock looking car with alky injection and turn an 11 second time slip...just my .02 cents" Well someone could also show up with a totally stock looking car with a bored and stroked 109 with some really good ported heads a stealthy stock looking turbo and a FAST XFI hidden somewhere and make everyones jaws hit the ground too. This would be the intent of the class in my honest opinion.

 

[flyin3]

Well someone could also show up with a totally stock looking car with a bored and stroked 109 with some really good ported heads a stealthy stock looking turbo and a FAST XFI hidden somewhere and make everyones jaws hit the ground too. This would be the intent of the class in my honest opinion.

yes but how many people have something like that....not a whole lot of people...i think with a certain set amount of money not alot but a little money you would have some great racing a huge turnout and you would get all sorts of diffrent "recipes" to get a car to go fast and cheap...sure you can still do your totally stock looking bored/stroked engine but i think if someone is making a new class, why not try to get the best turnout and response possible?

 

[HyperV6]

GNocide, I really apperciate you and the others for trying to start this new class. I was just hoping for a heads-up class that the majority of street driven Buick owner can race in. Best of luck with the class. I'll be watching in Bowling Green.

Craig

 

[Keller]

Isn't this exactly what they had in 2000?

I ran my T. Heads never off. TA49 and blue tops. Running 12-teens to 12.0s in some nasty heat. Managed my first 11.9x during their local brackets later Saturday night when it cooled down. BTW, I qualified mid-pack.

I also got a lot of heat for being the only one scrutinizing other cars hard. People were trying all sorts of things. TTA ICs, plenum spacers, battery relocation, etc. None of it allowed by the rules. Most of it was cleaned up before we ran. And the cars were fairly matched.

Chances are you won't get many or any cars to show. Any gems that will pass the rules will be too precious for their owners to run them. Or they just don't want to get beat by a ringer that has 5-figures spend to win a grand.

 

[SVORay]

And if you're going to require the stock airbox, .

Stock air box...what and the heck does that thing look like anyways :biggrin:

This class is a very cool idea but they reeaallllyy need to relax on the rules in order to have enough people to fill it.