Holy EFR Batman!
- Thread starter TurboDave
- Start date
The main problem is the wastegate.. RC has CNC'd an adapter that allows it to be mounted to the 3 bolt buick headers however it has no provisions for a wastegate. If you look at John pic you will see how the wastegate is plummed in before it gets to the turbo. either that or the crossover pipe like hot air cars would be the only way that I can see... Then the downpipe has to have a vband clamp setup....
I dont' think so, we're just not a large enough market. Add to that the fact that the majority of Turbo Regal owners fit in the "cheap skate" realm, I doubt there would be many in this community that would pony up the coin for such far advanced technology!!
I'd kill to be able to mount up a 7670, but my budget couldn't handle the turbo, nor the needed plumbing fabrications that would be required.
There's two routes to go:
1. Internally wastegated with a T3 housing
2. Externally wastegated with a T3 or T4 housing
Both options require totally refabbing the downpipe.
Both options require a passenger side header for stock heads with a T3 or T4 flange. Adding an adapter would not be the way to go IMHO, because it moves the turbo up and forward enough that compressor inlet plumbing would interfere with existing up pipe.
Then of course you have to fab up the plumbing needed for an external wastegate if you go that route.
If one decides to go with the internal wastegate option (BTW VERY well designed in these turbos) the downpipe fabrication is still required and may even be a little trickier. But the most obvious problem with the internal wastegate option on our cars is the wastegate actuator location. The design is such that the compressor housing cannot be clocked to match our typical straight out horizontal clocking, so the pipe going to the intercooler would be coming up at about a 45 deg angle to meet the compressor outlet pointing downward at a steep angle.
I'm not even sure about that. It may be that mounting the turbo on our cars would have the compressor outlet point at a steep upward angle. The internal blow off valve position would interfere.
So, there are challenges.
Yes, they can, it just presents other issues.
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
Ah. I downloaded their manual at their site and it showed them moving the actuator orientation so I thought the internal waistegate (pretty slick) would be feasible. The set up in the Mazda doesn't seem so impossible though. I've seen threads here with turning the turbo or positioning it angled etc the seem much more complicated than the setup shown.
It wouldn't be that difficult to fabricate a Ext gate setup at all .. pretty simple actually... but again like was mentioned .. in what numbers are we talking ? I have a hard time convincing customers how important data logging tools ... everybody wants 10 second performance on a 14 second budget ... to the guys that really want every last bit out of their setup .. I can see it ..
I am sure this will happen just a matter of when and if it will be financially lucrative .
I am sure this will happen just a matter of when and if it will be financially lucrative .
I thought I'd chime in and provide a bit more information about the turbo and install.
First off thanks for the interest and the kind comments that have been posted.
As has been mentioned above, there are numerous EFR product offerings ranging in size from 6258 to 9180. The first two digits in the nomenclature refers to the compressor wheel EXDUCER (not to be confused with the inducer size which many of the race classes use to limit turbo sizes), the third and fourth digits refer to the turbine wheel inducer. As Dave mentioned in the OP, the photos in this post are of an 8374 which means that the compressor wheel has an 83mm exducer diameter, the inducer happens to be 62.7mm, the turbine wheel inducer is 74mm.
A ton of additional EFR information can be found linked to the following page:
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/aftermarket/performanceTurbos.aspx
Titanium Aluminide (refered to as Ti-Al and also Gamma-Ti) is one of the technologies that EFR employs to improve transient response. Ti-Al is a quasi ceramic that is half the density of typical turbine wheel materials, such as Inconel or GMR. Half the density means half the inertia and a big improvement in tip in throttle response and time to boost. Couple Ti-Al with the dual row CERAMIC ball bearing cartridge and the time to boost compared to conventional turbos is much improved.
Another transient response improvement feature that can be used is a divided turbine housing, often referred to as 'Twin-Scroll'. In order to take advantage of the twin scroll housing the cylinder pulses need to be separated. For TB's that means that each scroll should be fed from one bank of cylinders i.e. cylinders 1,3, and 5 into one scroll and 2,4, and 6 into the other scroll. Plumbing this way separates the exhaust pulses until they hammer onto the turbine wheel. MY INSTALLATION DOES NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TWIN SCROLL BECAUSE ALL CYLINDER PULSES ARE COMBINED PRIOR TO ENTERING THE HOUSING. Why didn't I separate the banks? Because I chose to simplify the install by using stock headers modified for a T4 flange and external wastegate. Okay, so why did I chose a twin scroll housing over a single scroll, or single scroll with internal wastegate? That came down to turbine housing availability and packaging. As Dave mentioned, the integrated wastegate housings unfortunately clocks the actuator in a location that interferes with the compressor outlet so the turbine housings with integrated wastegates were ruled out, which left me with non-wastegated housings. The only non-wastegated housings available were twin scroll, so that is what I went with. This situation may soon change. I am a BorgWarner engineer working in the group that is responsible for EFR. We are working on alternate brackets and actuators which might improve the actuator to compressor cover fitment issue on applications like ours.
Below is a close-up of the twin scroll housing, note the clean and smooth cast surface with highly detailed logo and lettering. This is possible with investment cast processes. The volutes are as smooth as the exterior which helps avoid flow disruption along the walls.
Also shown in the above photo is the Aluminum bearing housing, multi-hole clamp plates, and bolts cross drilled for safety wire. All of these features were developed during the first year of EFR in IndyCar, the Aluminum bearing housing is presently available to the public on the B1 framesize turbos and soon will also be available on all EFR turbos. All IndyCars have been boosted by EFR turbos since 2011, the Honda powered cars ran a single 9180 and the Chevrolets ran twin 6758's. This year all cars will run twin 7163's. A post above asked how much boost would be required to hit the 750 HP rating of the 8374. That is a bit like asking 'How long is a piece of string'. It depends on the application. The IndyCars are able to make about 700 HP with a 2.2L on about 9 lbs of boost. Spinning 12,000 RPM and having astonishing volumetric efficiency helps them make the power at such low boost levels. All EFR compressor maps are public knowledge and posted in the link above. There is also a nice web based match tool called MatchBot linked on the site. It is a great tool to quickly match turbos to different applications.
Going back to the topic of making the claimed power ratings, many dyno pulls and also in-vehicle video clips are at the bottom of the link below from Full Race. Full Race is an EFR distributor that has a strong west coast customer base.
http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbos/borgwarner-efr-8374-turbo-2.html
Southeast Power Systems is an EFR distributor that has a strong east coast customer base. Both distributors are well versed in the EFR product line and provide excellent customer service.
http://www.spsturbostore.com/23-borgwarner-efr
If interested in power potential be sure to also check out the 9180 full race page, it has customer applications on the bottom of that page.
My particular install is not going to be a good representation of the power or performance potential. I say that because the engine behind that turbo is fairly mild with a stock valve train mounted on top of iron heads, couple that with shifting at ~5,200 RPM and that set-up will not be capable of out flowing the 8374 turbo. In addition, this RX-7 has yet to post sub 2 sec 60' times, the only attempts were with a TA-61 turbo during the TB.com open house events. Others within the TB community are in a much better position to seek the performance potential of EFR turbos than I am. So that begs the question why did I go with an 8374 and not something smaller? The reason I chose an 8374 is to see if it would package on an LC2. The 8374 has the same pierce points and therefore the same connection points as the largest EFR which is a 9180 (compressor wheel inducer diameter of a 9180 is ~67mm). If an 8374 will fit then the 9180 will fit and any smaller EFR will fit too. Let's start wrapping up this long winded post with a few photos of this tight but succesful install:
The turbo location is fairly constrained, it can't move further forward or lower due to the water pump pulley clearance. One of the nice features of the cover is the ability to run either a hose or a v-band connection. As you can see in the photo, there is a hose on the compressor outlet which is not ideal. To change this to a V-band it can easily be done by purchasing the mating V-band flange from Southeast Power Systems and cutting off the hose barb on the compressor cover which exposes the already machined V-Band connection.
The turbo can't move rearward by much due to the IAC connector. An adapter could be used to provide more clearance by rotating the IAC connector out of the way. But we made it fit without an adapter.
Not shown is the lack of clearance between the radiator hose and the Boost Control Solenoid Valve (BCSV) which is mounted on the compressor cover. Right now it is contacting the radiator hose, I need to relocate the valve which is easily accomplished.
There is enough clearance to fit under the hood of the 2nd gen Mazda RX-7, which means there will be more than enough room inside of the engine bay of a G-Body.
I hope that others are also excited to see the advent of this turbo technology.
First off thanks for the interest and the kind comments that have been posted.
As has been mentioned above, there are numerous EFR product offerings ranging in size from 6258 to 9180. The first two digits in the nomenclature refers to the compressor wheel EXDUCER (not to be confused with the inducer size which many of the race classes use to limit turbo sizes), the third and fourth digits refer to the turbine wheel inducer. As Dave mentioned in the OP, the photos in this post are of an 8374 which means that the compressor wheel has an 83mm exducer diameter, the inducer happens to be 62.7mm, the turbine wheel inducer is 74mm.
A ton of additional EFR information can be found linked to the following page:
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/aftermarket/performanceTurbos.aspx
Titanium Aluminide (refered to as Ti-Al and also Gamma-Ti) is one of the technologies that EFR employs to improve transient response. Ti-Al is a quasi ceramic that is half the density of typical turbine wheel materials, such as Inconel or GMR. Half the density means half the inertia and a big improvement in tip in throttle response and time to boost. Couple Ti-Al with the dual row CERAMIC ball bearing cartridge and the time to boost compared to conventional turbos is much improved.
Another transient response improvement feature that can be used is a divided turbine housing, often referred to as 'Twin-Scroll'. In order to take advantage of the twin scroll housing the cylinder pulses need to be separated. For TB's that means that each scroll should be fed from one bank of cylinders i.e. cylinders 1,3, and 5 into one scroll and 2,4, and 6 into the other scroll. Plumbing this way separates the exhaust pulses until they hammer onto the turbine wheel. MY INSTALLATION DOES NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TWIN SCROLL BECAUSE ALL CYLINDER PULSES ARE COMBINED PRIOR TO ENTERING THE HOUSING. Why didn't I separate the banks? Because I chose to simplify the install by using stock headers modified for a T4 flange and external wastegate. Okay, so why did I chose a twin scroll housing over a single scroll, or single scroll with internal wastegate? That came down to turbine housing availability and packaging. As Dave mentioned, the integrated wastegate housings unfortunately clocks the actuator in a location that interferes with the compressor outlet so the turbine housings with integrated wastegates were ruled out, which left me with non-wastegated housings. The only non-wastegated housings available were twin scroll, so that is what I went with. This situation may soon change. I am a BorgWarner engineer working in the group that is responsible for EFR. We are working on alternate brackets and actuators which might improve the actuator to compressor cover fitment issue on applications like ours.
Below is a close-up of the twin scroll housing, note the clean and smooth cast surface with highly detailed logo and lettering. This is possible with investment cast processes. The volutes are as smooth as the exterior which helps avoid flow disruption along the walls.
Also shown in the above photo is the Aluminum bearing housing, multi-hole clamp plates, and bolts cross drilled for safety wire. All of these features were developed during the first year of EFR in IndyCar, the Aluminum bearing housing is presently available to the public on the B1 framesize turbos and soon will also be available on all EFR turbos. All IndyCars have been boosted by EFR turbos since 2011, the Honda powered cars ran a single 9180 and the Chevrolets ran twin 6758's. This year all cars will run twin 7163's. A post above asked how much boost would be required to hit the 750 HP rating of the 8374. That is a bit like asking 'How long is a piece of string'. It depends on the application. The IndyCars are able to make about 700 HP with a 2.2L on about 9 lbs of boost. Spinning 12,000 RPM and having astonishing volumetric efficiency helps them make the power at such low boost levels. All EFR compressor maps are public knowledge and posted in the link above. There is also a nice web based match tool called MatchBot linked on the site. It is a great tool to quickly match turbos to different applications.
Going back to the topic of making the claimed power ratings, many dyno pulls and also in-vehicle video clips are at the bottom of the link below from Full Race. Full Race is an EFR distributor that has a strong west coast customer base.
http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbos/borgwarner-efr-8374-turbo-2.html
Southeast Power Systems is an EFR distributor that has a strong east coast customer base. Both distributors are well versed in the EFR product line and provide excellent customer service.
http://www.spsturbostore.com/23-borgwarner-efr
If interested in power potential be sure to also check out the 9180 full race page, it has customer applications on the bottom of that page.
My particular install is not going to be a good representation of the power or performance potential. I say that because the engine behind that turbo is fairly mild with a stock valve train mounted on top of iron heads, couple that with shifting at ~5,200 RPM and that set-up will not be capable of out flowing the 8374 turbo. In addition, this RX-7 has yet to post sub 2 sec 60' times, the only attempts were with a TA-61 turbo during the TB.com open house events. Others within the TB community are in a much better position to seek the performance potential of EFR turbos than I am. So that begs the question why did I go with an 8374 and not something smaller? The reason I chose an 8374 is to see if it would package on an LC2. The 8374 has the same pierce points and therefore the same connection points as the largest EFR which is a 9180 (compressor wheel inducer diameter of a 9180 is ~67mm). If an 8374 will fit then the 9180 will fit and any smaller EFR will fit too. Let's start wrapping up this long winded post with a few photos of this tight but succesful install:
The turbo location is fairly constrained, it can't move further forward or lower due to the water pump pulley clearance. One of the nice features of the cover is the ability to run either a hose or a v-band connection. As you can see in the photo, there is a hose on the compressor outlet which is not ideal. To change this to a V-band it can easily be done by purchasing the mating V-band flange from Southeast Power Systems and cutting off the hose barb on the compressor cover which exposes the already machined V-Band connection.
The turbo can't move rearward by much due to the IAC connector. An adapter could be used to provide more clearance by rotating the IAC connector out of the way. But we made it fit without an adapter.
Not shown is the lack of clearance between the radiator hose and the Boost Control Solenoid Valve (BCSV) which is mounted on the compressor cover. Right now it is contacting the radiator hose, I need to relocate the valve which is easily accomplished.
There is enough clearance to fit under the hood of the 2nd gen Mazda RX-7, which means there will be more than enough room inside of the engine bay of a G-Body.
I hope that others are also excited to see the advent of this turbo technology.
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Thanks for the post Son!!! Very insightful and informative!! But you forgot to mention the huge success of the EFR's in the Indy car series. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember them running the entire season without a single turbo failure. Correct?
It is a very fine grain. The investment casting is based on a wax part that has the same shape as the final casting. That wax is then dipped into a fine grain slurry allowed to dry and the dipping process is repeated many times to build up a shell before the wax is melted out and then the stainless steel poured.
You are partly right in saying they ran the entire season without a turbo failure. However, to date they have run TWO entire seasons without any failures. For IndyCar there have been over 448,000 miles, two years, and zero incidents with EFR turbos.
In addition to the IndyCar series, EFR competes in several other professional series including: The World Time Attack Challenge (links to in-car video footage are in the Full Race link provided above), FIA World Endurance Championship (including 24 Hours of LeMans), and the last several year's of the American LeMans Series which has now joined with Rolex GrandAm Series to form the Tudor United SportsCar Series. The 24 Hours of Daytona will run on January 25th & 26th as part of the Tudor United SportsCar Series, most of the P2 field will be running EFR turbos, including the Ford Riley's with their EcoBoost engines, Honda ARX-03b's, and the DeltaWing. Below is a link to one of Extreme Speed Motorsport's practice run, keep in mind that these are twin turbo cars (EFR 6258) that are running mandated restrictors. They focused a lot of effort into merging Daytona Prototype cars and Prototype 2 cars in the same class while making them competitive. The series mandated changes to the restrictor size as well as aero drag in an attempt to equalize the field. Hopefully it will make for great racing, but 24 Hours is a long time for slight advantages to build up and separate the field.
http://www.racer.com/video-extreme-speed-motorsports-p2-in-car-rolex-24-roar/article/327977/