Fuel pump for E85, yes I read the long post

[John Larkin]

I read the 11-page diatribe and that was alot of information. Maybe too much for my feeble brain. I am glad so many contributed to that over the past couple years.

I have 72lb injectors. I would like to run 25psi boost on the street on E85. What I gathered was that the most recent Holy Grail in-tank pump, the DW301, is at my injector's 100% duty cycle at 12 - 13.5 volts. I really don't want to run anything exotic that can fail (voltbooster, double pumpers, etc.). I just want a straight up go/no-go pump. Do I wait until June for this new Walbro turbine pump that Jack from Racetronix posted last week? And I don't mind running a larger return line if need be.

 

[Boost231]

y not run what you have and see what your injector duty cycle is and also log fuel pressure and see if it starts to fall off?

Then after you have that data see what you need to do. you might get away with the current pump you might be ok with the DW pump.

 

[John Larkin]

Thanks for the reply. I have Directscan and Scanmaster only. I would have thought by now that this hobby would be beyond every car being an independent research facility. Surely someone has BTDT. That is really what I am looking for but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[bogies87]

I think you hit the nail in the head when you said each car is an independent research facility. What works on Joes car may and may not work on Bobs car. I have been inquiring on some specifics and noticed it all depends.
Pick out a known E85 user and tuner (who you trust) and pick their brain. It will make more sense to you that way.

 

[John Larkin]

I was really not trying to come off as testy. I have spent alot of money on this and that over the years and for once was hoping to just mirror someone's success rather than reinvent the wheel. No more racing for me, I just want a fun street car that I can stab and steer.

 

[bogies87]

I did not think you were being testy, I am like you looking for reliable info. I have asked different questions and realize if there were 100 people running a recipe/ reading this post, there will be 100 different answers. Because what works for one or some will not work for others.

 

[marleyskater420]

I did not think you were being testy, I am like you looking for reliable info. I have asked different questions and realize if there were 100 people running a recipe/ reading this post, there will be 100 different answers. Because what works for one or some will not work for others.

Look at the DW pump, but IMO, it will not be sufficient at high-boost. It all depends what you use for BSFC calculations for E85. I like to err on the side of caution, so I use a .80-.85 BSFC(others may use .7-.75) and use 85% max IDC when calculating my pump needs.

Currently for in-pump tanks there are the dual walbro 340, however if you look at what happens above 70psi, I don't like what happens to the walbro pumps.

Racetronix has that 386lph pump that flows well at high pressure. For an in-tank I would choose that, or the double pumper.

I've spent a ton of time trying to figure out what pumps will flow enough, and basically if you are going in-tank, its either double-pumper, or the 386lph pump. You really need to look at what the pump does above 70psi to judge it properly. Remember base pressure is 45psi+whatever boost you run (lets say 20-25psi) so add 45+25=70. That is assuming no restrictions in the line (which isn't true) and no added pressure restrictions. In reality the pump may be seeing 80 or more psi in stock lines.(10psi in restriction if someone uses poor fittings, etc.)

My own research lead to a large external pump is the best way to go along with a fuel cell/sumped tank. However after long long talks with Racetronix, their double-pumper or that 386lph pump seems to be the ticket. That DW pump seems to drop off at high pressure, and pull a lot of amps.

 

[marleyskater420]

I did not think you were being testy, I am like you looking for reliable info. I have asked different questions and realize if there were 100 people running a recipe/ reading this post, there will be 100 different answers. Because what works for one or some will not work for others.

I agree. A lot of people say "X worked for me, so it must work for everyone." I took the approach of "I have bad luck, so lets over-build the fuel system in case I don't have magic lines and great luck."

With that said, you really need to look at the flow charts of the pumps before making a final decision. Call Kinsler Fuel Injection and they'll tell you- look at the flow charts at high pressure when you're picking a pump and running high boost.

 

[John Larkin]

I would be fine with the 386lph pump (F90000262) but I was told it is not E85 compatible. It's plenty of flow I believe. You can buy them anywhere, big with the Subaru crowd. I agree about the DW300; it seems limited to smaller injectors.

 

[marleyskater420]

They can't say it will work with E85 because, just like the Walbro 340s, they weren't designed to work with it. However, off the record, Racetronix told me that people have used that pump with E85, but that they will not warranty it if it goes wrong due to E85 fuel issues.

Personally, I would run it.

 

[Boost231]

y not tune around a base fuel pressure of 40 that way max would be 70 +/- if you are brave and want to go 30+

 

[marleyskater420]

because I think most chip makers want a base of 45psi. You could do 40, but I would rather plan on something higher just for a safety margin, ya know?

 

[Boost231]

43 line off right? so 73-75 psi max. chip tunners can get around 40 base. XFi users can get and use 40 base no problem

 

[John Larkin]

The E85 pump is coming out in a few weeks. I might as well wait for it. Not likely to be ridiculously priced. Not that many people running ethanol to need it.

 

[marleyskater420]

43 line off right? so 73-75 psi max. chip tunners can get around 40 base. XFi users can get and use 40 base no problem

Yea, I see your point. However when you look at the aeromotive pump and the walbros, the dropoff at 70psi is so drastic that it really doesn't afford much leeway. If you compare a Aeromotive Pro Series or A1000 pump to a weldon 2015 or 2025 from 65-80psi and look at the pressure drops, the Aeromotives drop off significantly relative to base flow.

Anyway, my point with that is just to watch the pumps flow chart...and remember that some of them are not always truthful.. case in point flow sheets that show Aeromotive Pro series pumps that are supposed to flow 1000 lb/hr @80psi testing at 775 lb/hr... the dropoff after 70psi is drastic.

 

[Boost231]

flow will also very with voltage. Each car will have its own unique power supply to the pump. i know im getting a solid 14+ volts at the pump in my car. However i have a good size power and gorund as well

 

[marleyskater420]

Yea, but most pumps are rated at 14v, unless otherwise stated, so at best he is getting what the flow chart says, which is even more reason to really make sure you look at the high pressure flow levels. I'm using 10awg wire for all my power and ground connections with my pump, so I know the voltage drop will be minimal. However if someone isn't doing that, or if their car is only putting out 13.5v or so, it won't be flowing what it says on the chart.

Basically, I have come to take flow charts will a small grain of salt, so to speak, unless I can see an independent 3rd parties' flow numbers of that pump.

The highest voltage you will get is whatever your alternator puts out, minus whatever voltage drop the cables to the pump give (if any). So unless we can measure the voltage while under heavy acceleration at the pump, we can't really know we're getting 14v (or whatever your alternator puts out).

flow will also very with voltage. Each car will have its own unique power supply to the pump. i know im getting a solid 14+ volts at the pump in my car. However i have a good size power and gorund as well

 

[Boost231]

i have meassure voltage at the pump at WOT so i know. however i just changed pumps so we will see what happens. I agree with you, if your wiring isnt up to par you will be lucky to see 13.5+ at the pump. So proper power and grounds are key as well as flow #'s of the pump

 

[marleyskater420]

i have meassure voltage at the pump at WOT so i know. however i just changed pumps so we will see what happens. I agree with you, if your wiring isnt up to par you will be lucky to see 13.5+ at the pump. So proper power and grounds are key as well as flow #'s of the pump

Oh I figured you have measured it, I really meant that most people aren't going to measure the voltage at the pump @ WOT, ya know? I think using good wiring can be a great benefit for a real cheap cost when it comes to ensuring the least amount of voltage drop and strain on the electrical system. I've seen what some of these in-tank pumps pull in amps, and its almost as much as my weldon! Its ridiculous! For .50cents a ft (or cheaper) for 10awg wire, its a great safety measure for those looking to ensure their pumps get all they can.

 

[Boost231]

agreed, you need to run a ground straight to the battery. i also run 10 gauge power and ground on mine