E85 Update

[Pablo]

Thats exactly why they dont have these stations. Ethanol would put the Test Only lobby out of business.

There are hundreds of thousands of businesses that only test cars for emissions. Their profit margin depends on a percieved need for smog laws and testing.

They have alot of sway in sacramento.

 

[weester87]

Pablo,

Theres a e85 station here in san diego, its on the corner of El Cajon Blvd and the I-15

 

[Pablo]

Yeah I know, thats the one im talking about

thats about an hour and a half away... ok, maybe an hour with no traffic

If I was closer I would allready be trying to run the stuff

 

[72firebird]

Thats exactly why they dont have these stations. Ethanol would put the Test Only lobby out of business.

There are hundreds of thousands of businesses that only test cars for emissions. Their profit margin depends on a percieved need for smog laws and testing.

They have alot of sway in sacramento.

I don't believe that it will put the companies out of business but rather give them a new direction to work in. The laws would become more strict and for those states that have emissions testing, they will continue that but again become more strict.

 

[gmncop]

like it

haven't tried it in my t type yet,but have tried a 20% mix in my s/c park ave,and like it.car seems to be more responsive then with 93 gas.plus i did the 20% mix with e85 and 87 octane and, runs very nice!!

 

[Pablo]

I don't believe that it will put the companies out of business but rather give them a new direction to work in. The laws would become more strict and for those states that have emissions testing, they will continue that but again become more strict.

The cars they are testing today emit virtually nothing, with ethanol the emissions would be ridiculously low.

I can think of two states off the top of my head that have gotten rid of testing because no one was failing the test.

If I were a lobbyist I wouldn't want to risk that.

 

[mybuick]

si i have alot of friends that have put e85 in there cars and for months now and nothing has happened to the metal fuel system... thats cool.... now if this fuel burns clean could we put it in the tank and go to emissions and pass?

 

[72firebird]

si i have alot of friends that have put e85 in there cars and for months now and nothing has happened to the metal fuel system... thats cool.... now if this fuel burns clean could we put it in the tank and go to emissions and pass?

no your car will run like complete crap without the proper tunning. It's going to run way lean. Read the whole thread, or read it again. I think Don said that he tried passing an emissions test with it and failed. But yes if it's tuned correctly it will pass fairly easily.

 

[TurboBuickSix]

http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/e85dyno.php

 

[TurboBuickSix]

Seems like this stuff works really good in turbo motor,saab has come out with a flex vehicle that boasts 20% more torque from e85 than conv gasoline on the same amount of boost.They are probably bumping up the timing with the e85 no doubt.I'm going to start getting ready to convert,this stuff will make everyone happy as far as gearheads and enviromentalcases once the current issues are worked out and we start to adjust for it.We already know well the benefit from running alchol injection so using it for a fuel instead of a bandaid for inadequate fuel seems to be a no brainer.Maybe the alchohol kits now in use could be used spray straight water with e85 as the main fuel for some benefit.I would not mind buying new injector AGAIN to use this fuel,I could put the 60's in my Chevy van to convert that too perhaps.Time will tell what happens with E85 but it is attractive to me even with the lesser economy already for many reasons.

 

[b4black]

Just an FYI, I put E85 in my wife's Sebring which is a FFV. It was 10% cheaper at the pump. It lost more than 25% mpg, was hard to start on cold mornings and shifted funny sometimes. Big net loss on a cents per miles basis. There is no getting over thermodynamics. Ethanol was much less energy then gasoline.

When they sell gasoline with 10% ethanol, it's starts as an 85 octane, and the ethanol increases it up to 87. Adding 10% more to 87 will maybe get you to 89 (midgrade). Stick with premium. 10% more ethanol in 93 may get you 94. Probably not worth it considering the 3% mpg hit for every 10% ethanol.

Australia tried 20% enthanol mandate. There were so many vehicle problems, they stop it.

I think you would have much more success sticking E85 into a alcohol injection system. A lot easier too.

What's the technical advantages to E85? Higher octane? That's what race gas is for. When you factor in the mpg loss, race gas doesn't look so expensive and the only modification needed is more boost.

 

[Pablo]

E85 is alot cheaper than 10% in most places compared to gasoline, and your mileage drop is alot more than most people's


Race gas is alot more expensive, and has lead, alky injection is still not as accurate or reliable as shooting high octane fuel through the injectors.

 

[b4black]

Race gas comes in more than one flavor. The Unleaded 100 is right next to the E85 at the local gas station.


Yes, E85 is cheaper than 10% is some areas. It's also more expensive in others. see: http://www.cleanairchoice.org/outdoor/PriceForum.asp


Pure Ethanol is more expensive than gasoline. If E85 is cheaper than 87, then it's because of subsidizes and tax breaks.

 

[b4black]

your mileage drop is alot more than most people's

Thermodynamics predicts a 24% drop in MPG based on the energy of E10 vs. E85.

The EPA fuel economy ratings show 29% less mpg for E85 versus ethanol-free gasoline. Other cars are similar.
see page 18: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2005.pdf

The National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition (NEVC) says it will only be 5-12% less.


Our car matches two of the three. I did this to see who was right, the NEVC or thermodynamics.

I'm filling up today - with good ol' gasoline. :tongue:

 

[JSAautomotive]

What's the technical advantages to E85? Higher octane? That's what race gas is for. When you factor in the mpg loss, race gas doesn't look so expensive and the only modification needed is more boost.

Actually... it has more to do with the cooling effects that running alcohol has on peak combustion temperatures. Alcohol and or ethanol do not have as many BTU's as gasoline would, so there's less heat/energy to be had from ethanol as a fuel. But the major advantages to running ethanol would be that you could increase compressions and boost and still have lower combustion temps, which result in less CO2 (carbon dioxide) emissions (greenhouse gasses). Give you an idea. When we used to run a blown alcohol motor in our hydro boat, at the end of the run, the blower hat would be frozen. We'd have to spray WD40 on the linkages before the run so they wouldn't freeze and keep the motor wide open throttle at the end of the run!!!

 

[b4black]

Actually... it has more to do with the cooling effects that running alcohol has on peak combustion temperatures. Alcohol and or ethanol do not have as many BTU's as gasoline would, so there's less heat/energy to be had from ethanol as a fuel. But the major advantages to running ethanol would be that you could increase compressions and boost and still have lower combustion temps, which result in less CO2 (carbon dioxide) emissions (greenhouse gasses). Give you an idea. When we used to run a blown alcohol motor in our hydro boat, at the end of the run, the blower hat would be frozen. We'd have to spray WD40 on the linkages before the run so they wouldn't freeze and keep the motor wide open throttle at the end of the run!!!

The things you describe (increased compression and boost) sound exactly like the benefits of higher octane.

As for the lower CO2, I don't buy it. A set amount of carbon enters the engine as fuel. It comes out as CO2, CO or unburnt hydrocarbons. The latter two a just incomplete oxidation and would be CO2 if fully combusted. CO and HC are much worse than CO2. Since you need 30% more ethanol than gasoline, more carbon in - more CO2 out.

Lower Combustion temps will lead to less NOx, which is the idea behind EGR.

 

[loki993]

i dont know what the big deal is CO2 makes the trees grow

 

[ijames]

Just felt like doodling on the CO2 question. Ethanol is C2H6O and I used octane for gasoline, C8H18. Balancing each equation at stoich, C2H6O + 3O2 = 2CO2 + 3H20 and C8H18 + 12.5O2 = 8CO2 + 9H2O. Multiplying the ethanol by 4.167 give 4.167C2H6O + 12.5O2 = 8.333CO2 + 12.5H2O. That means that at stoich, with just enough of each fuel to consume the same amount of oxygen, the ethanol actually produces more CO2, 8.333 vs 8 (and more water, 12.5 vs 9 but who cares ).

 

[Blown&Injected]

sounds like a tech topic

I thought ethanol is C2H5OH.

BTE Where is the local E85 station?

Did not know you burn chips Carl. May have to meet you when it comes time for some fine tuning.

 

[ijames]

From an IUPAC and atom count perspective, C2H6O is correct. From a typical organic chemistry perspective C2H5OH or CH3CH2OH are common because they show the ethyl moiety and the -OH that makes it an alcohol, so you get structural info along with the atom count. On Rt 198 between Hwy 32 and the BW Parkway, on the north side, there is a Chevron station with E85. I thought we talked chips a couple of years ago when you were having emissions problems? Anyway, anytime you want to talk is fine with me. If the weather is good I'll probably go to Capitol Friday night to watch. The monthly pizza get-together is next week, first Tuesday of each month at the North Laurel Pizza Hut on Rt. 1, just south of Hwy 32, from 7 pm until 9-11 pm. Come out and chat.