E85 Goo, How To Say Goo Bye To It!!

[forcefed86]

Thats ok for some i guess. But I cant idle 8 160lb injectors on pumpgas. And for a street strip car i dont want do drive around on a tank of low octane where i cant run boost!

With toluene it actually raises the octane level so u can keep on boostin!

 

[forcefed86]

Managed to take out a head gasket on my motor, so I pulled the injectors. Oddly enough this year I have no traces of “goo”. My only theory is the 160lb injector tip design is less prone to producing the goo. I run no additives and all my gas comes from the same station that is very close to my house. Same station I’ve had “Goo” issues with in the past as well. My bottles of “carb defender” did arrive, but I have yet to use them.

 

[Ttype6]

Managed to take out a head gasket on my motor, so I pulled the injectors. Oddly enough this year I have no traces of “goo”. My only theory is the 160lb injector tip design is less prone to producing the goo. I run no additives and all my gas comes from the same station that is very close to my house. Same station I’ve had “Goo” issues with in the past as well. My bottles of “carb defender” did arrive, but I have yet to use them.

I should be running soon,so I will be looking at my injectors periodically. Last time I had it running,I could find noticeable amounts of goo in a week. You would think that this problem is known by the industry and that they would eventually change the blend,in some way,to stop this. Maybe this is what happened to you. I'm hopeful that I will find no goo when I'm up and running as an additive is just more expense.

 

[MikeL.]

TTT....has anyone tried a fuel injector cleaner hooked to the rail that'll eliminate the goo/varnish buildup?

 

[MikeL.]

**long read**

Imo, this seems to be a definitive answer on a couple points,
1. What exactly is the goo/gum
2. Where it originates
3. How its formed and deposited

The poster "Thiazol" is a chemist by trade and documents his findings here on the e85 gum mystery. You can jump to page 7 to get the cliff notes version.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...http://codsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3965

 

[forcefed86]

Cool thread thanks! Basically confirms the links and info I posted above. Its an additive that’s gas station specific and or old additives ”gum” that has accumulated in old tanks that they filled with ethanol.


It’s strange there is 6 pages on solid information from our friendly chemist. When he appeared to be close to finding the exact compound responsible for this issue. Then suddenly he was contacted by the big oil boys and basically silenced. Wonder if they paid him off to shut up and keep the good research quiet. Since “X” amount of ethanol is basically required in fuel these days, the big oil companies own almost all the ethanol plants. That is the case here in KS anyway. Koch industries partnered with “Big Oil” owns the ethanol plants here.


Still no easy way to stop this stuff that I’m aware of. Interesting theory in his thread about injectors slowly leaking after shut down causing larger formations of GOO/GUM. My current “Race car” that has been using E85 has no check valve in the fuel system. When I shut the car down fuel pressure drops to zero instantly. This means no leaky injectors after shutdown. This may also explain why I haven’t seen much in the way of goo with this car. I also still believe the injector design has a lot to do with it.


May be worth a shot to have an alternate power source for your fuel pumps. Then instead of shutting off ignition you can shut down the fuel pump and it will bleed the fuel pressure down so the injectors don’t drip/leak while the car sits.

 

[belsie]

Switching return to vent line for increased size seems like a great way to improve return with the bigger pumps needed for E-85.
Does anyone have any feedback, info & instructions or pics of how to best do this?
At what point up front and what is done at sending unit with vent line to assure fuel returns into tank?

 

[Ttype6]

Cool thread thanks! Basically confirms the links and info I posted above. Its an additive that’s gas station specific and or old additives ”gum” that has accumulated in old tanks that they filled with ethanol.


It’s strange there is 6 pages on solid information from our friendly chemist. When he appeared to be close to finding the exact compound responsible for this issue. Then suddenly he was contacted by the big oil boys and basically silenced. Wonder if they paid him off to shut up and keep the good research quiet. Since “X” amount of ethanol is basically required in fuel these days, the big oil companies own almost all the ethanol plants. That is the case here in KS anyway. Koch industries partnered with “Big Oil” owns the ethanol plants here.


Still no easy way to stop this stuff that I’m aware of. Interesting theory in his thread about injectors slowly leaking after shut down causing larger formations of GOO/GUM. My current “Race car” that has been using E85 has no check valve in the fuel system. When I shut the car down fuel pressure drops to zero instantly. This means no leaky injectors after shutdown. This may also explain why I haven’t seen much in the way of goo with this car. I also still believe the injector design has a lot to do with it.


May be worth a shot to have an alternate power source for your fuel pumps. Then instead of shutting off ignition you can shut down the fuel pump and it will bleed the fuel pressure down so the injectors don’t drip/leak while the car sits.

He has identified the compound as being in the 15% gasoline in E85 and claims that the gasoline can hold a lot of it in suspension but the ethanol can't so it falls out of the ethanol as it leaves the injector nozzles. He then says that high octane gasoline has little if none of this stuff in it,so if we add a gallon of high octane like xylene it will hold a lot of the stuff and take the burden off the ethanol. I think this sounds good but it doesn't fit with the scenario that carb guys are seeing with E85. They find this stuff in their float bowls. These are the guys who led Driven to concoct Carb Defender.
I've also read some GM findings that talked about polyisobutylene being one of the compounds found in the gasoline portion of E85 and that it was never intended to be used in such high concentrations of ethanol. It mentioned that if the amount (in relation to total fuel) was too low,it would actually attach to the normally forming deposits and create a much worse scenario. I think this is the thinking that Driven follows as polyisobutylene is the active ingredient in Carb Defender. Instead of finding the offending culprit at the injector tips and assuming it needs to be eliminated,they say that the problem is caused by not enough of it being added to E85. This follows GM's findings that not enough polyisobutylene worsens the build up that it is added to reduce.

 

[MrMNTTA]

now before we all get out of hand about this. I dont think anybody is really attacking anybody, but some are fusterated by this problem.

Now lets look at some thoughts:

This is happening to some people, but not all.
Some find an additive cures this issue.
Others never experiance this issue.

Now, I am carbed and have never had this issue. I have had the dreaded white powder corrosion in the carb bowls, but no goo. Now its possible, that these additives might be a regional thing. It might not be everywhere due to some retarded emission law or state reg. It might be due to humidity or the way the moon aligns at night. who knows...? But what we do know is the Lucas or Stabil has some effect on correcting the issue. Following my crazy thoughts above ^ Its possible that these fuel treatments are simply maintaining the additive in suspension while the engine runs. It seems fairly straight forward in thought to me atleast. Same reason there are additives in paint to keep it together so it doesnt seperate.

all just concepts..... no facts. But something to ponder about before we all attack eachother.

A.j.

I'm late to this party, but I believe I might know what the 'goo' is. I believe the 'goo' is DRL. DRL is an acronym for 'drag line reducer'. It is a product that is put in to gasoline, and helps reduce friction, which helps increase the flow of gasoline through pipelines.

DRL is definitely soluble in gasoline, which is why it makes it past fuel filters. It also explains why it 'washes away' with gasoline after it has gummed up valves and the like. Some parts of the country use DRL, others do not. Don't forget that all E85 is not created equal. Some of E85 is actually 85% ethanol & 15% gasoline, while other "E85" is actually 70% ethanol & 15% gasoline. This could exacerbate the problem if you are in a part of the country that uses DRL, and the E85 is actually E70.

 

[belsie]

Thanks for the input!! How do we find out what is in our area??? 70% or 85% ??? Who's in charge ??? 10 gal. of gas every 3 months fix it?? What washes it away if needed???

 

[MrMNTTA]

Thanks for the input!! How do we find out what is in our area??? 70% or 85% ??? Who's in charge ??? 10 gal. of gas every 3 months fix it?? What washes it away if needed???

I used to have an E85 chart that will tell you if the E85 is actually E85, or if it's E70. I'll try to dig that up for you. MOST of the time, it is determined by the weather. In the northern states, when it's cold as hell, they're getting E70. (ethanol has a lower flash point than gasoline, so the higher gasoline content in E85 during winter months aids in vehicles starting in cold weather situations) When it's hotter than the hubs of hell in the southern states, they're probably getting actual E85.

Since DRL is soluble in gasoline, and if it is in fact DRL, gasoline will wash the goo away. I've watched the goo dissolve in to the gasoline right in front of my eyes.

 

[MrMNTTA]

This is an OLD article that I just did a quick search on, but it explains a little bit of what I was saying:

There's a clickable link in that article that has the chart - but it doesn't work anymore! I'll keep looking for my chart!

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/02/27/when-is-e85-not-85-percent-ethanol-when-its-e70-with-an-e85-st/

 

[MikeL.]

Thanks for the input!! How do we find out what is in our area??? 70% or 85% ??? Who's in charge ??? 10 gal. of gas every 3 months fix it?? What washes it away if needed???

quickfuel has an E85 tester which is avail through Summit/Jegs. I use it on every fill up and so far here in OH, it's still 85% on the money. They're in the process of switching to winter blend so I'm sure it'll drop in the coming months. It's cheap and easy to use.

 

[MikeL.]

I used to have an E85 chart that will tell you if the E85 is actually E85, or if it's E70. I'll try to dig that up for you. MOST of the time, it is determined by the weather. In the northern states, when it's cold as hell, they're getting E70. (ethanol has a lower flash point than gasoline, so the higher gasoline content in E85 during winter months aids in vehicles starting in cold weather situations) When it's hotter than the hubs of hell in the southern states, they're probably getting actual E85.

Since DRL is soluble in gasoline, and if it is in fact DRL, gasoline will wash the goo away. I've watched the goo dissolve in to the gasoline right in front of my eyes.

 

[MikeL.]

I'd be curious to see if DRL is the culprit and if it's disclosed somewhere to the consumer to see if it's in our E85.

 

[belsie]

This is an OLD article that I just did a quick search on, but it explains a little bit of what I was saying:

There's a clickable link in that article that has the chart - but it doesn't work anymore! I'll keep looking for my chart!

http://green.autoblog.com/2007/02/27/when-is-e85-not-85-percent-ethanol-when-its-e70-with-an-e85-st/

Thank you sir.....................

 

[MrMNTTA]

I'd be curious to see if DRL is the culprit and if it's disclosed somewhere to the consumer to see if it's in our E85.

I highly doubt it's disclosed - but that's just my opinion. I do know for a fact that DRL is in some E85, without question. Some of it hinges on what exactly the refinery is using for the 15% - 30% gasoline for the E85 or E70.

Think of it this way. Back in the day, the only 10% ethanol you would see at the pump was the 89 octane stuff. Now, you see it in the 87 octane gas as well. SO, what's the octane of the gasoline before they add the 10% ethanol? Is it 83, 84? And then once they blend, they get the bump up to 87.

Now, jumping back to E85 - I question the quality of the "gasoline" or "natural gas", or whatever they're using, and what the constituents are in the stuff they're blending in with the E85 or E70.

 

[dank GN]

Just throwing this out there what is everyone's operating temps ? From what I have heard you should run higher temps runing E85. I try and keep my temps around 185-190 when runing strait E85. I wonder if this has effect on the GOO ?

 

[Rafs-T-Type]

Just throwing this out there what is everyone's operating temps ? From what I have heard you should run higher temps runing E85. I try and keep my temps around 185-190 when runing strait E85. I wonder if this has effect on the GOO ?

Never heard that one. Source?

 

[belsie]

Interesting????? We in the warm south may not have same problems as northern users??? Back in the day we had to add gas to diesel in PGH. to help prevent GEL factor in winter!! Could this be a similar condition as E-85 has a lower ignition point kind of like diesel fuel??? All guys with goo, clogging etc....... what is your climate???