C.N.P Coil Near Plug/ Coil on Plug

Craig Smith said:
Chris, I am sorry. It wasn't fair of me to say things in that manner towards you. I don't have any problem with you or anything you are saying. My post probably sounded condescending towards you and for that I must apologize.

What's truly "killing me" is how some people seem to explain benefits and features to their prospects. All this talk about being a true tooth counter sounds pretty neat and tricked out on the surface, which is the only place 99% of you guys dropping the money should be concerned with. But it's clever marketing to say the least when they spin these facts in such a fashion that they sound like they do more than they can. Ask your contacts at these manufacturers how long their system takes from the first crank until it knows exactly where the engine is. This information can be derived from the factory LS1 sensor arrangement within 90 degrees if the individual crank sensor pulses are decoded, and the 58x LS2 crank sensor and its 4x cam sensor improves upon that. The Chrysler Hemi setup is a really cool one as well. However, these aftermarket systems that merely count the teeth without decoding the position information encoded into the sensor arrangements don't offer this functionality.

For what it's worth, even the Gen 7 and the classic FAST system count crank pulses. What separates them from newer, more advanced systems IMO is what it can and will do with that information. In these examples, the classic FAST did almost nothing that produced any tangible benefit. The Gen 7 at least used this info to produce the error code 72 if it didn't count the expected number of crank pulses in between consecutive cam pulses. However, without the ability to decode a crank and/or cam sensor signal and to rely on a 1x cam sensor for synchronization means that if you drop crank pulses, it's gonna get ugly. The aftermarket has and continues to rely on this technology and it's largely been fine. It's difficult to provide a system as universal in nature as the aftermarkets are while also introducing the ability to decode any significant number of the various crank/cam sensor arrangements on the street.... at least for the ~$2000 price we are accustomed to paying.

There are several systems on the market that can now work with some of the higher-resolution sensors on late-model engines like the LS2, and even just that will yield the ability to more accurately control ignition timing. However, hearing of EFI system manufacturers talking to their customers about counting teeth like it's cutting edge technology makes me feel like you have been treated unfairly, and it bothers me.

I don't want to put in print who is and isn't doing this because things can change overnight. Perhaps they already have. However, I hope I can give you some more pointed questions to ask in your own research to help you obtain the answers you need.

Sorry if I was coming across a bit rough. I'm just trying to keep it real and help the rest of the world understand what's going on under the hood. Thanks.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. Understand you dont want to point fingers and get involved in this mess. With the info you provided those who are really interested in an accurate ignition system have the ammo needed to make an informed decision. Some will be very disappointed about the facts they find. Shame you and Mike are no longer at Accell. No one there these days has a clue what is going on.
 
turbobuick said:
How the system understands exactly WHERE the crank is in its rotation and out how it recovers when/if the crank signal is corrupted or loses count and how long it'll take. I think this stuff is important to know and understand especially in a high RPM motor and in a race car that is prone to noise interference problems with the many high output electronics we run these days.
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I prefer the KISS method. Regardless of what system you run, it's nearly impossible to get a distributor to fire the wrong cylinder. The only thing that can get messed up is individual cylinder correction and that would only happen until the cam signal resynched.
 
HighPSI said:
I prefer the KISS method. Regardless of what system you run, it's nearly impossible to get a distributor to fire the wrong cylinder. The only thing that can get messed up is individual cylinder correction and that would only happen until the cam signal resynched.
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I agree. The distributor keep's it simple in more ways than one. When you start talking high rpm's and then thinking of what's truely going on with all the sensors and inside all of these boxes to fire at exactly the right time.....I like my distributor.
 
Craig Smith said:
There are several systems on the market that can now work with some of the higher-resolution sensors on late-model engines like the LS2, and even just that will yield the ability to more accurately control ignition timing. However, hearing of EFI system manufacturers talking to their customers about counting teeth like it's cutting edge technology makes me feel like you have been treated unfairly, and it bothers me.
Click to expand...

It would appear Lonnie puts a lot of emphasis on this. I recall him stating that some systems didn't count teeth but Electromotive did, like it was some cutting edge thing.
 
quickt said:
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Understand you dont want to point fingers and get involved in this mess. With the info you provided those who are really interested in an accurate ignition system have the ammo needed to make an informed decision. Some will be very disappointed about the facts they find. Shame you and Mike are no longer at Accell. No one there these days has a clue what is going on.
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Sorry to hear about Accell and I'm shocked at the same time. I'm pretty sure if you had any questions about ECU's and how they work you can give the tuner a call that you talked to a little over a week ago to help you out with some ignition algorithm questions and he can straighten out any other tuning/hardware questions you may have. :biggrin:
 
S2V6RACER said:
It would appear Lonnie puts a lot of emphasis on this. I recall him stating that some systems didn't count teeth but Electromotive did, like it was some cutting edge thing.
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You really don't comprehend do you? READ once again.
 
S2V6RACER said:
Sorry to hear about Accell and I'm shocked at the same time. I'm pretty sure if you had any questions about ECU's and how they work you can give the tuner a call that you talked to a little over a week ago to help you out with some ignition algorithm questions and he can straighten out any other tuning/hardware questions you may have. :biggrin:
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Cal did confirm that you have no clue what you were talking about as Craig did with his detailed explanation. I now understand why you never answer questions.:rolleyes: Cal and I are fine leave him out of what ever problems you have with me.

Reynolds is coming. Stop running that wiener cleaner and lets see what ya got.:eek:

Got a problem with me 513-898-0553 man up and make the call. I will not have any more exchanges with you here.
 
quickt said:
Cal did confirm that you have no clue what you were talking about as Craig did with his detailed explanation. I now understand why you never answer questions.:rolleyes: Cal and I are fine leave him out of what ever problems you have with me.

Reynolds is coming. Stop running that wiener cleaner and lets see what ya got.:eek:

Got a problem with me 513-898-0553 man up and make the call. I will not have any more exchanges with you here.
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Lonnie,

Anybody with a elementary school education can go back and read your posts (from all the various threads) and find out who said what and when. You asked me questions, I answered for you, the best I could.

As far as showing to Reynolds and showing you what I got, are we going to check for spark scatter or are you calling me out for a race?? What are you bringing and what kind of times "should" it run? :biggrin: ;)

If I have a question about Electromotive, Motec, I'll be sure to give you a call 1st. I'll call Cal if I need some questions answered about Accel since he's the dealer for them, but I don't know anybody who runs that system. :eek:
 
S2V6RACER said:
Lonnie,

Anybody with a elementary school education can go back and read your posts (from all the various threads) and find out who said what and when. You asked me questions, I answered for you, the best I could.

As far as showing to Reynolds and showing you what I got, are we going to check for spark scatter or are you calling me out for a race?? What are you bringing and what kind of times "should" it run? :biggrin: ;)

If I have a question about Electromotive, Motec, I'll be sure to give you a call 1st. I'll call Cal if I need some questions answered about Accel since he's the dealer for them, but I don't know anybody who runs that system. :eek:
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I have argued with you all I am going to. You have not answered one question that was asked. As to your other comments I could really care less. Peace
 
I built a jig to hold the champion valve covers so they could be drilled and tapped on the CNC. Thats about all I could justify doing since the volume is so low,it will work fine.
Mike
 
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I've been running LS2 coils on a 3800 block for about 2 years now.

I'm not familiar with the 3.8. What does it use for cam and crank pick up?
 
It runs a 3 space pick up for our crank and a single window pick up for the cam signal.

I'm doing turbo set ups on the series2 in rwd F-bodys. I'd be interested in knowing the LS coil converson :)
 
coils

tell me more about your turbo conversion, what ignition system is on there stock?

B
 
Ok, I see the issue is with the 3x. I again apologize with being unfamiliar with the 3.8.

The 3800 block uses an 18x signal with a 3x sync off the crank. The crank sensor has 2 pickups. The harmonic balancer has has two steel symmetrical trigger wheels inside it. I'm utilizing only the 18x and have since removed the 3x trigger wheel. The engine also uses a 1x cam sensor. Both sensors are hall effect.

IMG_1577Small-1.jpg


I don't know what the trigger wheel looks like for the 3.8 but depending on the gap size of the 3x, the trigger might be able to be machined for a 12x wheel. The gap should ideally be the same thickness as the teeth. I'm not sure if that's possible by just altering a factory unit. I have been successful in getting perfect copies of the fwd trigger wheel made in 12x (though the 18x works fine). I would think most aftermarket computers should be happy with the 12x, though I only have experience with the AEM. I've noticed the GN guys typically like the xfi system, however, which I am unfamiliar with.

Here is an example of a fwd trigger reproduced in 12x. The factory GM 18x trigger on the left, and the custom 12x on the right.
IMG_1487-1.jpg

IMG_1488-1.jpg




Anyone have some more info on the 3x GN trigger? I think that would be the issue holding back more CNP conversions being done on a budget.
 
gn trigger wheel is the same as the FWD inner ring , our crank sensor mounts the same as fwd and use a two slot sensor just like the fwd but we only use the inner most slot (furthest from connector end)
 
Hmm, that seems easy enough. Is there no readily produced symmetrical trigger wheel to replaced that 3x?

If its the same ring and attachment setup as the 3800, this is a really easy part to replace with a custom one.

Hmm.. I might have to find a local GN guy that wants to experiment. :)
 
I was at MIR for the World Cup shootout and there was a black viper GTS coupe there. He had a VERY stock appearing viper with twin promod 90's and was running 7.50's@191mph:eek: He had an AEM setup that used all the factory sensor and wiring. He was running the factory coil packs and ignition. Car weighed 3600# to boot. I'm not aware of anyone else making that kind of power with a distributorless ign system. I was impressed and want to find out more about what the factory Viper arrangement is along with the AEM box.
 
Michael, with regards to the AEM box, I'm running a boost comp fuel map, full electronic vss based boost control with alternate high boost map, sequential fuel injection, individual coils, switch retard, 2-step, antilag, traction control, no lift to shift, meth control, 3 bar MAP with no MAF, etc. Keep in mind this is all in a Fiero and we had to basically come up with all the software settings, and tuning ourselves. Those Viper guys use this on the regular and so there is MUCH more common information with regards to their setups. I love the functionality of the software, and its all done in 1 box. No extra add-ons, etc.

(Don't forget that the AEM can be set up to control the 4L80e too, for you big dog guys)


EDIT: Scott, thanks for that link. Exactly what I needed.
 
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