C.N.P Coil Near Plug/ Coil on Plug

[turbobuick]

I guess,
i need to find a dist and quit my sideline stance waiting for a successful COP system.

Electromotive's nice (anyone need a NIB Fast)?

Anyone have a spare dist?

Lonnie has been messing with the new Electromotive Tec2 GT and it is a pretty nice system from what I've seen. He has tuned a few cars with them and is planning to put on on his Buick if he ever finishes it. The ignition system comes with the package along with an unterminated harness for under $2k which is pretty reasonable when you figure it comes with your entire ignition system and crank trigger. The only things I don't care for are the software and the wastespark. I am told the wastspark is not an issue like it is on the C3I since the crank trigger is a 60-2(58x) wheel and true tooth counter so it doesn't lose time on the 2-step like the C3I ignition module will. There are also some other datalogging features I would like the Electromotive falls short on and I already own 6 new MSD coils which I'ld like to use in a COP setup.

Look at the Accel ICM box too. It seems like it'll do everything I mentioned above to run COP and will also work with your FAST system. I was planning on running one on my new motor if I ever use it:wink:

http://www.mrgasket.com/primages/74404G.pdf

Software can be downloaded here:
http://accel-dfi.com/calmap/calmapdownload.asp?subdir=SparkMap_for_ICM/

It appears in the config screen you can set up a 58x wheel to update every 360*. There is a cam to missing setting from what I am reading in the help file, will tell the ICM on initial startup where the cam sync is then after that will update every 360* of crank rotation on the two missing teeth as opposed to 720* of cam rotation.

 

[GARY HARVEY]

Thank You for this information.
I stopped my S2 project last year not wanting to use a dist., and aquired the FAST ICM w/Laptop and was wanting to use the MSD 8530 Kit (havn't been able to find one) which may have been a blessing in disguise.
After reading several threads, all pointing to a dist.,
which removes WS and seems to not be tearing up engines, I'm knuckling under to using a dist., in spite of my anxiety backing up and going with antique technology.
If distributors are what everyone is hauling the mail with etc., etc..

 

[turbobuick]

Thank You for this information.
I stopped my S2 project last year not wanting to use a dist., and aquired the FAST ICM w/Laptop and was wanting to use the MSD 8530 Kit (havn't been able to find one) which may have been a blessing in disguise.
After reading several threads, all pointing to a dist.,
which removes WS and seems to not be tearing up engines, I'm knuckling under to using a dist., in spite of my anxiety backing up and going with antique technology.
If distributors are what everyone is hauling the mail with etc., etc..

Distributor=K.I.S.S.!

Spark scatter still exists with a distributor but it is at a minimum and does not stray as much as it can with a COP. I'm still running a distributor with no complaints!

Overall I do think COP is a better ignition and would be more stable but there needs to be pretty close attention paid to its setup. There can be a lot of HP in stable ignition timing at higher RPM.

 

[TurboBob]

Distributor=K.I.S.S.!

Spark scatter still exists with a distributor but it is at a minimum and does not stray as much as it can with a COP.

Spark scatter is a function of the engine position sensing mechanism and ECM capabilities.

Using the stock crank trigger, the spark scatter will be the same, COP or distributor.

The FAST uses the stock 3 pulse crank trigger just like the stock ECM. So spark scatter will most likely be very similar.

I have heard Meaney's discussion on crank triggers, and his system supposedly has an angle based ignition algorithm which would reduce spark scatter but needs higher resolution on the crank trigger.

The TEC is most likely similar.

COP has no inherent scatter issues.

Bob

 

[quickt]

The TEC is most likely similar.

COP has no inherent scatter issues.

Bob

TEC GT is in a class by it self as is the M600 Motec, Also the Accel ICM. These systems are true tooth counters that can use up to a 360 tooth wheel though the 60/-2 wheel seems to be the most popular. These systems seem to be free from spark scatter issues. The BS is not even in the same class although some think they are. Seen BS3 with timing float with a 24X wheel as much as 10 deg. So much for timing accuracy with increased resolution of that system. Wonder how that works on your engine at 7500RPM and 35 lbs of boost.

COP does what its told to do. If the counter misses a trigger the spark timing will scatter or float.

 

[WHITE T]

Lonnie,

Are you a dealer for Electromotive?

If so... just out of curiosity... what does it cost for a TEC GT?

Thx!

 

[quickt]

Lonnie,

Are you a dealer for Electromotive?

If so... just out of curiosity... what does it cost for a TEC GT?

Thx!

Not a Dealer. The system was $1800.00

 

[charlief1]

This is an interestin idea and if you could get it to run as a stand alone system that would be great. Any more updates on the idea yet?

 

[S2V6RACER]

After having lunch with John Meaney today, we touched on this subject. The BS3 uses cam sync to determine where #1 is and thats it. From there it "Counts teeth". A 24x wheel has teeth every 15 degrees and it is watching the time between the previous 2 teeth to determine spark advance. Not sure what significance a cam sync every 360 degrees vs 720 of crank rotation since it has nothing to do with timing (BS3) any why would you want that when we all know about timing chains and getting timing based from the inconsistencies of that.

 

[S2V6RACER]

TEC GT is in a class by it self as is the M600 Motec, Also the Accel ICM. These systems are true tooth counters that can use up to a 360 tooth wheel though the 60/-2 wheel seems to be the most popular. These systems seem to be free from spark scatter issues. The BS is not even in the same class although some think they are. Seen BS3 with timing float with a 24X wheel as much as 10 deg. So much for timing accuracy with increased resolution of that system. Wonder how that works on your engine at 7500RPM and 35 lbs of boost.

COP does what its told to do. If the counter misses a trigger the spark timing will scatter or float.

Lonnie can you elaborate on your findings? Did you use a timing light, or some kind of logging equipment to determine this? Maybe there was some wiring issues with the car? Who told you John doesn't count teeth? He publicly stated that at Mike Lichts seminar in BG a few years ago.

 

[quickt]

Lonnie can you elaborate on your findings? Did you use a timing light, or some kind of logging equipment to determine this? Maybe there was some wiring issues with the car? Who told you John doesn't count teeth? He publicly stated that at Mike Lichts seminar in BG a few years ago.

I have posted detailed info more than once and do not plan to do it again. Snap on Scope SB ford 9500 RPM. Tested 4 systems on same car over 7 days. They all but one had similar issue.

 

[quickt]

After having lunch with John Meaney today, we touched on this subject. The BS3 uses cam sync to determine where #1 is and thats it. From there it "Counts teeth". A 24x wheel has teeth every 15 degrees and it is watching the time between the previous 2 teeth to determine spark advance. Not sure what significance a cam sync every 360 degrees vs 720 of crank rotation since it has nothing to do with timing (BS3) any why would you want that when we all know about timing chains and getting timing based from the inconsistencies of that.

Cool its a tooth counter. How does it resync if for some reason it miss counts a tooth? or miss counts 2 teeth? Or should we assume it will never miscount?

I want my timing as close to dead nuts as it can get. I am not 100% sure timing chain stretch will blow the heads off the car. But I do know ignition timing will.

 

[UR50SLO]

Very interested in the end result and product with this idea here.

~Scott

 

[S2V6RACER]

It appears we had a test done comparing (2) distributor based systems (customer installed) and a EM system (Waste Spark) and I don't even know for sure where Motec comes into play. It seems that it is quite likely there was a mechanical issue(wiring) that wasn't identified. This can be very difficult to track down. More talk on this on this thread...


http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/engine-tech/278594-best-ignition-setup-run.html

 

[Craig Smith]

This is killing me!

"Update every 360 degrees"??? WTF is that supposed to mean? If a cam sync "updated" something every 360 degrees, you wouldn't need it because you're back to the beginning of the same crank sensor pattern again. The whole idea of a single-pulse cam sensor is that it occurs a single time over an entire firing order sequence, so that the control device knows which half of the sequence it's on. The crank sensor fully rotates twice within the firing order sequence, and the ECU doesn't know which half of the cylinders to fire without the cam pulse.

Newer OEM systems use non-symmetrical crank and cam sensor patterns that produce a set of rising and falling edges such that the ECU can determine the exact position of the engine within 10-15 degrees of cranking from any point in the combustion cycle. This, combined with higher tooth counts, more processor horsepower, and more advanced control algorithms, lays the foundation for a more accurate and robust ignition control system. This more advanced sensor design allows a multi-channel ignition control system to never lose track of which cylinder should be firing next, as well as allowing much finer control of ignition coil events.

 

[TurboBob]

the hi-res OEM systems also allow almost immediate synchronization so that you get proper combustion on the first possible cylinder and not squirting fuel into a cylinder that won't fire. (there are no 'prime pulses' any more) It really helps the startup emissions. (a really big deal nowadays).

 

[turbobuick]

This is killing me!

Well then I must apologize Mr. Smith. Sorry this conversation is beneath your advanced understanding of electronic ignition systems and is apparently irritating to you. I have posed these questions to you in private and you had little opinion before

"Update every 360 degrees"??? WTF is that supposed to mean?

The way it was explained to me is that the system is then a true crank tooth counter. If not WTF is the point in having 2 missing teeth?????????

If a cam sync "updated" something every 360 degrees, you wouldn't need it because you're back to the beginning of the same crank sensor pattern again. The whole idea of a single-pulse cam sensor is that it occurs a single time over an entire firing order sequence, so that the control device knows which half of the sequence it's on. The crank sensor fully rotates twice within the firing order sequence, and the ECU doesn't know which half of the cylinders to fire without the cam pulse.

I understand this thanks

Newer OEM systems use non-symmetrical crank and cam sensor patterns that produce a set of rising and falling edges such that the ECU can determine the exact position of the engine within 10-15 degrees of cranking from any point in the combustion cycle. This, combined with higher tooth counts, more processor horsepower, and more advanced control algorithms, lays the foundation for a more accurate and robust ignition control system. This more advanced sensor design allows a multi-channel ignition control system to never lose track of which cylinder should be firing next, as well as allowing much finer control of ignition coil events.

That is an excellent explanation thanks. That is EXACTLY what I am looking for in an ignition system if I go COP. Now my question is what CURRENT aftermarket stand alone fuel mgt system does this? Gen 7 and XFI are single channel control systems are they not?

 

[quickt]

This is killing me!

You are not the only one

"Update every 360 degrees"??? WTF is that supposed to mean? If a cam sync "updated" something every 360 degrees, you wouldn't need it because you're back to the beginning of the same crank sensor pattern again. The whole idea of a single-pulse cam sensor is that it occurs a single time over an entire firing order sequence, so that the control device knows which half of the sequence it's on. The crank sensor fully rotates twice within the firing order sequence, and the ECU doesn't know which half of the cylinders to fire without the cam pulse.

Hi Craig,
Great explanation. I understand that the cam signal happens every 720deg and why. I sure hope I did not post cam signal every 360 I know that is not correct. The EM system does not need a cam signal as it is a waste spark system. So it counts and starts over every 360 degrees. Resync maybe not best choice of words for me to use. If EM is used with a cam signal its only for fuel timing. The Motec M600 uses cam for start up so it does know what cycle the -2 tooth is on. Here is where I am just lost.

The claim is that the BS3 when used with a DIS system or COP using an equally spaced trigger wheel never looks at cam signal after start up. So the question is what happens if some reason (no matter how rare this might be) the crank trigger mis-counts a tooth? How does it get back on track? Is it possible for that to effect the ignition timing in any way?
As you posted. Its my understanding it will continue to go threw the firing order till cam signal. Ted has posted this is not the case. The cam signal is not needed after start up.

Newer OEM systems use non-symmetrical crank and cam sensor patterns that produce a set of rising and falling edges such that the ECU can determine the exact position of the engine within 10-15 degrees of cranking from any point in the combustion cycle. This, combined with higher tooth counts, more processor horsepower, and more advanced control algorithms, lays the foundation for a more accurate and robust ignition control system. This more advanced sensor design allows a multi-channel ignition control system to never lose track of which cylinder should be firing next, as well as allowing much finer control of ignition coil events.

I think thats what has been said here about the EM and the Motec ignition operation but much better than I could have ever written it. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[Craig Smith]

Chris, I am sorry. It wasn't fair of me to say things in that manner towards you. I don't have any problem with you or anything you are saying. My post probably sounded condescending towards you and for that I must apologize.

What's truly "killing me" is how some people seem to explain benefits and features to their prospects. All this talk about being a true tooth counter sounds pretty neat and tricked out on the surface, which is the only place 99% of you guys dropping the money should be concerned with. But it's clever marketing to say the least when they spin these facts in such a fashion that they sound like they do more than they can. Ask your contacts at these manufacturers how long their system takes from the first crank until it knows exactly where the engine is. This information can be derived from the factory LS1 sensor arrangement within 90 degrees if the individual crank sensor pulses are decoded, and the 58x LS2 crank sensor and its 4x cam sensor improves upon that. The Chrysler Hemi setup is a really cool one as well. However, these aftermarket systems that merely count the teeth without decoding the position information encoded into the sensor arrangements don't offer this functionality.

For what it's worth, even the Gen 7 and the classic FAST system count crank pulses. What separates them from newer, more advanced systems IMO is what it can and will do with that information. In these examples, the classic FAST did almost nothing that produced any tangible benefit. The Gen 7 at least used this info to produce the error code 72 if it didn't count the expected number of crank pulses in between consecutive cam pulses. However, without the ability to decode a crank and/or cam sensor signal and to rely on a 1x cam sensor for synchronization means that if you drop crank pulses, it's gonna get ugly. The aftermarket has and continues to rely on this technology and it's largely been fine. It's difficult to provide a system as universal in nature as the aftermarkets are while also introducing the ability to decode any significant number of the various crank/cam sensor arrangements on the street.... at least for the ~$2000 price we are accustomed to paying.

There are several systems on the market that can now work with some of the higher-resolution sensors on late-model engines like the LS2, and even just that will yield the ability to more accurately control ignition timing. However, hearing of EFI system manufacturers talking to their customers about counting teeth like it's cutting edge technology makes me feel like you have been treated unfairly, and it bothers me.

I don't want to put in print who is and isn't doing this because things can change overnight. Perhaps they already have. However, I hope I can give you some more pointed questions to ask in your own research to help you obtain the answers you need.

Sorry if I was coming across a bit rough. I'm just trying to keep it real and help the rest of the world understand what's going on under the hood. Thanks.

 

[turbobuick]

Chris, I am sorry. It wasn't fair of me to say things in that manner towards you. I don't have any problem with you or anything you are saying. My post probably sounded condescending towards you and for that I must apologize.

Not a problem lets move on.

What's truly "killing me" is how some people seem to explain benefits and features to their prospects. All this talk about being a true tooth counter sounds pretty neat and tricked out on the surface, which is the only place 99% of you guys dropping the money should be concerned with. But it's clever marketing to say the least when they spin these facts in such a fashion that they sound like they do more than they can. Ask your contacts at these manufacturers how long their system takes from the first crank until it knows exactly where the engine is.

I haven't made ANY decisions on what system I am going with. I'm leaning toward the Accel ICM but trying to learn more about it before making the leap.

This information can be derived from the factory LS1 sensor arrangement within 90 degrees if the individual crank sensor pulses are decoded, and the 58x LS2 crank sensor and its 4x cam sensor improves upon that. The Chrysler Hemi setup is a really cool one as well. However, these aftermarket systems that merely count the teeth without decoding the position information encoded into the sensor arrangements don't offer this functionality.

This is EXACTLY what I am trying to figure out with some of these systems. How the system understands exactly WHERE the crank is in its rotation and out how it recovers when/if the crank signal is corrupted or loses count and how long it'll take. I think this stuff is important to know and understand especially in a high RPM motor and in a race car that is prone to noise interference problems with the many high output electronics we run these days.

For what it's worth, even the Gen 7 and the classic FAST system count crank pulses. What separates them from newer, more advanced systems IMO is what it can and will do with that information. In these examples, the classic FAST did almost nothing that produced any tangible benefit. The Gen 7 at least used this info to produce the error code 72 if it didn't count the expected number of crank pulses in between consecutive cam pulses.

I did speak with Job Spetter once regarding timing control in these systems and he agreed that it isn't the best.

However, without the ability to decode a crank and/or cam sensor signal and to rely on a 1x cam sensor for synchronization means that if you drop crank pulses, it's gonna get ugly.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The aftermarket has and continues to rely on this technology and it's largely been fine. It's difficult to provide a system as universal in nature as the aftermarkets are while also introducing the ability to decode any significant number of the various crank/cam sensor arrangements on the street.... at least for the ~$2000 price we are accustomed to paying.

Stuff like this along with datalogging, traction control and boost control options are starting to make a Motec look like a good buy. So far I have looked at ProEFI, EFI technologies, Electromotive, Motec, BS3, Accel and FAST and the Motec seems to keep coming out on top for everything I am looking to do. I haven't looked at their software yet and I am told it is difficult to understand and navigate. Plus support is supposed to be non-existent and expensive when you find it.

There are several systems on the market that can now work with some of the higher-resolution sensors on late-model engines like the LS2, and even just that will yield the ability to more accurately control ignition timing. However, hearing of EFI system manufacturers talking to their customers about counting teeth like it's cutting edge technology makes me feel like you have been treated unfairly, and it bothers me.

When I mention a true tooth counter I am talking about a system that does what you explained above. One that is processing the cam/crank data and has a more accurate understanding of where the crank is in its rotation and not just continuing to count teeth through a firing rotation without knowing if it is correct or not. At 8000 rpm a lot can happen in 720* of rotation.

I don't want to put in print who is and isn't doing this because things can change overnight. Perhaps they already have. However, I hope I can give you some more pointed questions to ask in your own research to help you obtain the answers you need.

Sorry if I was coming across a bit rough. I'm just trying to keep it real and help the rest of the world understand what's going on under the hood. Thanks.

Thanks I understand and appreciate good meaningful discussion on the topic. Do you have any info on the Accel ICM you would care to share?