T-Type or GN as a road racer or DE car??

[Pablo]

That's pretty impressive. What kind of front/rear weight balance do you have in that car? That big block has some heft.

I agree with your suggestion on the powermaster. I ditched mine for a manual setup. Can manual brakes be used successfully in a road racing environment?

 

[UNGN]

That's pretty impressive. What kind of front/rear weight balance do you have in that car? That big block has some heft.

I agree with your suggestion on the powermaster. I ditched mine for a manual setup. Can manual brakes be used successfully in a road racing environment?

Weight distribution on our car is similar to a TR. The Front is about 200 lbs heavier, but then so is the rear, with the fuel cell cage and rear window stuff.


For brakes, I don't feel a g-body will do all that good on a track that requires a lot of braking, anyway. Something wide open with lots of straights and fast corners is where it will work best. With this in mind, manual brakes should work as well as any.

If I was making an Track Day G-body, I'd go a different way than our 2+2 making it as light as possible (no A/C, lighter seats/interior/ selective metal removal/V6 with AL heads, etc. and put 13" brakes in front) and set up the wheel wells for 275 racing tires all around.

 

[DragCamaro]

just curious - but i heard before that the lc2 has too narrow of a powerband to be ran successfully as a standard... anyone else have an opinion on this? i figure if it had a good decent reving cam and a quick spooling ball bearing turbo it wouldnt be too shabby

sorry to kinda thread jack but i felt it was relevant

 

[DailyDrifter]

just curious - but i heard before that the lc2 has too narrow of a powerband to be ran successfully as a standard... anyone else have an opinion on this? i figure if it had a good decent reving cam and a quick spooling ball bearing turbo it wouldnt be too shabby

sorry to kinda thread jack but i felt it was relevant

Its relevent, but you better put the flame suit on now! For road racing I would put a 5 speed behind the engine. I think you would burn an automatic up pretty quick with constant gear changes. Not to mention going into a corner is better done with a manual to help you slow down a little and keep the rear "loaded" as opposed to pulling it into second gear (auto) and having the rear temperarily locking up, or having the trans lagging between downshifts.

 

[Pablo]

Its relevent, but you better put the flame suit on now! For road racing I would put a 5 speed behind the engine. I think you would burn an automatic up pretty quick with constant gear changes. Not to mention going into a corner is better done with a manual to help you slow down a little and keep the rear "loaded" as opposed to pulling it into second gear (auto) and having the rear temperarily locking up, or having the trans lagging between downshifts.

I agree, though I would think that for AutoX an auto could do alright. I don't see any reason why a manual trans TR wouldn't do well if it had a BOV and properly sized turbo. Yes you'd give up drag racing performance but who cares if you are a road racer.

 

[charlief1]

just curious - but i heard before that the lc2 has too narrow of a powerband to be ran successfully as a standard... anyone else have an opinion on this? i figure if it had a good decent reving cam and a quick spooling ball bearing turbo it wouldnt be too shabby

sorry to kinda thread jack but i felt it was relevant

Its relevent, but you better put the flame suit on now! For road racing I would put a 5 speed behind the engine. I think you would burn an automatic up pretty quick with constant gear changes. Not to mention going into a corner is better done with a manual to help you slow down a little and keep the rear "loaded" as opposed to pulling it into second gear (auto) and having the rear temperarily locking up, or having the trans lagging between downshifts.

The LC2 power band is an issue but if you have, say a 4.1, you'd do better. It really needs a 6 speed with a very close ratio set so you can keep the rpm at the higher level. To really be compeditive you'd need a destroked 4.1 so you could get the RPM up and keep it there, but it would be kind of a dog on the bottom end.

I agree, though I would think that for AutoX an auto could do alright. I don't see any reason why a manual trans TR wouldn't do well if it had a BOV and properly sized turbo. Yes you'd give up drag racing performance but who cares if you are a road racer.

Turbofish38 did a lot of SCCA Solo in one of his cars and did fairly well. I'm suprised he hasn't chimed in yet. He did use an auto so he could get out of the corners better and (I've made this mistake before so if I'm wrong sorry) made it to the nats in the car.

 

[turbofish38]

What's with these threads?

It's got 4 wheels and a motor. What else do you need so that it goes fast around a corner?

Pretty much what the man from U.N.cle...er GN has stated. Take some weight out or figure out how to redistribute it and nothing can beat you.

As far as settings go, I've found what works with one combination doesn't always work with another. Heck just a 20 pound difference on any corner of the car pretty much throws off the perfect setting. I learned all I could about how suspensions work and experimented with how it all works on my GN. Somedays I just got so frustrated that I said screw it. See that's the beauty of a fantastic power to weight ratio. You can always throw everything out the window and steer the bastard with your throttle. I've always said I invented drifting.

Sometimes I swear the best improvements I ever made to the car were tires. IMO those will make or break your combination. Heck just look at the Rice Boys. Every F'n bolt on part ever made and it's a battle to see who doesn't DNF. Seat time my friends. Seat time............

Yeah my rants are enigmatic. You just have to read between the imaginary lines to what the heck I'm talking about.

Oh yeah. Check out my signature. I've been making G-Bodies handle since 78 when I used my 78 ElCamino as a cone picking implement.

 

[UNGN]

A 5/6 speed isn't going to work too well with a stock block V6.

The Block is spindly in thrust, and there is very little usable RPM between spool up and HP peak.

A stage II motor would be killer, if you could find a gearbox that could survive behind it.

For an auto, I'd propose using a manual valve body and a shifter that rachets between 2 and 3 in combo with 2.73 or 3.00 gears depending on the track size/speed. Jim Halls Chapparals auto's back in the day and transmissions have come a long way.

Good brakes can make up for most of the benefits of engine braking and huge coolers with a fan will take the heat away from the trans.

If it's going to be about fun anyway, you are going to want it to have so much power you'll want to keep both hands on the wheel.

 

[daves87gn]

subscribed

 

[blacksix]

What other weak spots tend to show up on TR's? Brakes, suspension, and tires obviously, and there are a number of ways to deal with that.

I would expect a TH350 would take a beating better than a 200, with a monster cooler, and be cheaper to rebuild every season if needed. Might run out of gear on straights, but you shouldn't be shifting into overdrive repeatedly at WOT anyways.

I would expect the engine to get pretty hot, would a FMIC be better or worse? Stock rad enough or do you need something whizzy?

I am trying to decide whether to spend $5k to address some of the above, or to spend it on a $2k Talon or something and just beat the hell out of it. You wouldn't care if you put the Talon in the weeds, so might have more fun since you can try to drive it at 9 or 10 tenths. With the Buick, I'd always be just a little afraid of crashing it, or of some other guy crashing INTO it.

Thoughts?

 

[TurboTnZ06]

It's a lot easier to get a C5 Z06 and road race that. All it needs is tires, replace the brake pads after each run, and bleed the clutch. Real fast racers don't even change the suspension hardly at all from the factory settings. YMMV

 

[Dave Levey]

I don't see the g body as the issue, you can dump weight add shocks, sway bars and tires and be in pretty good shape, the question becomes how long will the LC2 live on a road course ? they are great drag racers but I can't imagine sustained use at 4000 rpm plus for a very long time, unless of course you are going forged in the bottom end,

 

[scot w.]

Okay after reading all these posts some are correct and some are completely wrong! Brett, Need to get rid of the 22yr old mindset of "just going in a straight line"!!

Not really sure of how many are out there today that are auto-Xing there TR's but I sure have! I'm here to tell everyone that these cars will surprise you and others on a auto X course! Just sit back a minute and think about it, Our TR's came factory with a 4-link suspension that does work quite well.

I Auto crossed my old Buick GN, Drifted my old GN with not much mods at all and kept up with some of the top competitors! Right now i'm building my current White T-Type for that very purpose. Corner Carver!!

Here are some of the Biggest issues with the TR that need to be adressed to be competitive:

1) These cars Push like PIGS in the turns so the larger the tire out front the better to elliminate that push.

2) Another thing is "Bracing" the more bracing the better to help eliminate "Flex". (Frame bracing, GNX braces, urathane body bushings)

3) "Brakes" Here people seem to go way over board when it's really not needed. Simply replace the front calipers with dual piston SSBC calipers (bolt on) and slotted rotors.
Out back change over to F-body disc brakes and that is good enough for autocrossing but if you were to roadrace they will heat up too fast/much and will need to go larger.

4) TIRES - Like Eric mentioned before, Tires are a HUGE part in making the TR handle MUCH better! I went from 15'' wheels to 17'' wheels on my old GN and it was a HUGE difference then I went to 18'' wheels and much wider on my current T-Type, MAJOR difference!! I will probubly have 265's on the front by next summer! :biggrin:

TR's handle great in the curves with little mods! Not just straight line cars!!

SW.

 

[blacksix]

It's a lot easier to get a C5 Z06 and road race that.

Yes, for $20k

 

[tim87tr]

I'd buy TRs for the quarter mile, great sixty foots on stock and modded cars, and as mentioned solid axle and power curve for the dragstrip. I've ran 03 Cobra and C6 on open track. If I was you I'd consider a C5 for open track, they are getting down in the Buick cost range.

 

[jdpolzin]

G-body's can be made to handle well but it will cost some money to do. Brakes are needed in the front. Stock replacements are Ok but if you plan to take advantage of larger diameter rims, you'll need more break to stop the larger rotating mass. These cars weigh almost 2 ton fully loaded. The stock brake diameter is not enough and will heat up, trust me I've cracked two stock size slotted rotors.

Another factor is that stock springs sit the car up too high, the car needs to be lowered to change the center of gravity. Our cars sit up like 4x4's compard to the new Mustangs, Camaros, Vettes, etc.

The stock suspension is horrible for bump steer. You'll need to get a good set lower ball joints or spindles and good upper control arms.

Although we do have a factory 4 link style set up, flex in the stock rear control arms is horrible, at least box the stockers or get a good set of aftemarkets.

Thats a good start to make a G-Body handle.

All in all, I with UNGN on this one.

 

[TurboTnZ06]

I'd buy TRs for the quarter mile, great sixty foots on stock and modded cars, and as mentioned solid axle and power curve for the dragstrip. I've ran 03 Cobra and C6 on open track. If I was you I'd consider a C5 for open track, they are getting down in the Buick cost range.

And traction control (competition mode) on the C5 to keep the shiny side up when you want to go 11/10ths on the turns.

 

[jdpolzin]

And traction control (competition mode) on the C5 to keep the shiny side up when you want to go 11/10ths on the turns.

We can always use traction control if we have a FAST XFI!!!

 

[DailyDrifter]

And traction control (competition mode) on the C5 to keep the shiny side up when you want to go 11/10ths on the turns.

Traction Control ABS . The only thing that I want controlling my car is me, not some computer that "thinks" I might need its input to correct the situation.

 

[LITLV6]

not sure how relevent this is but i'm in the process of tearing out my suspension and replacing it with a full hotchkis tvs setup. i'm not doing big body spindles or uppers on the front, but just replacing the bushings in the front, the hotchkis kit comes with heavy tie rod sleeves, new spings up front with a 1" drop. the rear has new boxed lower trailing arms with a brace that goes from the front lower mount to the upper cross member mount for the upper trailing arms. the kit has adjustable upper trailing arms, springs and new sway bar for the rear and the a new sway for the front. rear is also a 1" drop. I'm also doing a new set of bilstein shocks for front and rear. i'll let ya know in a couple days how much of a difference it makes :biggrin:

I tend to think this will make a pretty sizable difference, but i don't hit corners super hard like you would on a road course. :tongue: