I've got the itch to get back in to one of these cars. I owned an 87 T-Type back in 94-95. It is still the fastest car I've ever owned. Since owning that car I've had several German cars. A Porsche RS America and a few 'M' BMW's. I really like driving on a road course as opposed to a drag strip. It seems G Body suspension parts are considerably cheaper than what I'm used to looking at for P cars and BMW's. Two things that put these cars at a disadvantage are the auto. trans. and the solid rear axel. But I've seen late sixties muscle cars like Shelby's and Z28's running laps in the 2:20's at Road America, those are pretty fast laps. Has anyone on here built one of these cars to take turns?
T-Type or GN as a road racer or DE car??
- Thread starter mbrouder
- Start date
So with a stripped interior, full cage, after market control arms w/urethane bushings, sway bars, shocks and springs. these cars still wouldn't handle well?
WeAreVenom
Member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2005
I believe there are a few guys on here that have built there's for SCCA and the like. One guy might even have a 5-speed conversion IIRC. Though it is creative and different I just don't see the point because it's so expensive. You're better off buying a Miata. You'll save more money and have a ton more fun.
GNBRETT
Pelennor Fields
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2004
Handle well is relative to what ur comparing it to. Compared to a dump truck it would handle great. But even a stock vette from (20) years ago will handle better then just about anything you could do to a TR. The front and rear suspension was not designed to handle like any number of other car models could.
T-CHRGD
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2006
Don't listen to those guys 
Check out this thread:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/268785-how-make-gbody-handle.html
Also check out Welcome to Pro-Touring.com & G-Machines.com
Check out this thread:
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/brakes-suspensions-tires-wheels/268785-how-make-gbody-handle.html
Also check out Welcome to Pro-Touring.com & G-Machines.com
DailyDrifter
The Slow and the Curious
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
These cars can handle pretty damn good. Get B-Body brakes up front, Front frame braces, Tubular upper and lower control arms, Big hollow front and rear sway bars, and good tires. Set the front with about 1-1.5 degrees negative camber and you would be amazed how well a G-body will handle (with not that much money ). It may be a little "jumpy" on some highways due to road crown and condition of the road, but on a course you can run it into a corner pretty hard
Tires are the most important thing, they are the only part of the car that touches the ground. I have Falkens and they are pretty good.
Also if you make your steering wheel smaller you can gain with quicker steering response.
). It may be a little "jumpy" on some highways due to road crown and condition of the road, but on a course you can run it into a corner pretty hard Tires are the most important thing, they are the only part of the car that touches the ground. I have Falkens and they are pretty good.
Also if you make your steering wheel smaller you can gain with quicker steering response.
corsair231
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2005
I don't know about road courses but history has proven that they turn left really well.
WeAreVenom
Member
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2005
If you do it then have fun. I still think a GN is a terrible platform for a car that can seriously handle.
The_Six
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2009
I asked this once and was told to go to this site MalibuRacing.com Message Boards • Index page and look around they are more of a road race crowed then these guys are.
Yes the G body can be made to handle. There's a lot of ways to do it. As far as the road course idea you need to see what UNGN has done to his Pontiac GA 2+2. He runs the Texas flying mile and I think he's gotten close to 150 in the traps so far. It's fairly straight but it still has curves in it. As far as your specs for the front read some of this thread.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/g-body-drag-car-alignment-settings.290592
As far as using a manual, yes you can but you need a very close ratio box and a BOV that will recurculate to the inlet of the turbo on up and down shifts. This way your turbo will stay at a consitant speed and not slow down.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/threads/g-body-drag-car-alignment-settings.290592
As far as using a manual, yes you can but you need a very close ratio box and a BOV that will recurculate to the inlet of the turbo on up and down shifts. This way your turbo will stay at a consitant speed and not slow down.
The only really bad thing about getting a G-body to handle vs a vette or similar car is weight and a solid rear axle.
On a race track, the solid rear axle isn't all that much of a burden, so weight becomes the bigger problem.
5.0 mustangs make ok track cars, and their suspensions aren't much better than a G-body... but you can easily get one down to 300-400 lbs less than a G-body so that's their advantage.
A gutted and lightened G-body with good suspension and tires would be faster than a stock Corvette on a road course, but no where near a gutted corvette with tires.
HP makes up for handling and on a big track like Road America, a Turbo G-body would be 100X more fun than a Miata. The Miata driver would get his doors literally blown off every couple laps as the big car flies by 40 mph faster.
The setup with an auto would be tricky, but lock up converter with 2.73 gears would give about 150 mph top end in drive (have it lock up at 120 or so) and set up the shifter to allow downshifts into 2nd for the slower corners and let the turbo torque do the rest.
If you set it up to run E85, only running out of gas is a problem. It should run cool and make great power.
On a race track, the solid rear axle isn't all that much of a burden, so weight becomes the bigger problem.
5.0 mustangs make ok track cars, and their suspensions aren't much better than a G-body... but you can easily get one down to 300-400 lbs less than a G-body so that's their advantage.
A gutted and lightened G-body with good suspension and tires would be faster than a stock Corvette on a road course, but no where near a gutted corvette with tires.
HP makes up for handling and on a big track like Road America, a Turbo G-body would be 100X more fun than a Miata. The Miata driver would get his doors literally blown off every couple laps as the big car flies by 40 mph faster.
The setup with an auto would be tricky, but lock up converter with 2.73 gears would give about 150 mph top end in drive (have it lock up at 120 or so) and set up the shifter to allow downshifts into 2nd for the slower corners and let the turbo torque do the rest.
If you set it up to run E85, only running out of gas is a problem. It should run cool and make great power.
UNGN,
I presume you've done a good amount of research on G body suspension, what about some numbers on G body suspension?
I'm curious about front camber curves, bump steer, roll center etc...
Just on it's face, I would think the front suspension has some potential. For example, A third gen F body is generally considered a good handler yet with the modified macpherson strut setup, you have a less than ideal camber curve. I would think a G body could be set up to at least have a better camber curve and thus less compromise on the front spring rate.
I would imagine the wheelbase length could be a disadvantage on tight courses.
To me the weight isnt that big of an issue. My T type is just at around 3100 and its not "gutted" though it has drag wheels and no front swaybar. Not super light but not very heavy either.
Anyway, how do you think the suspension compares to say a thirdgen F body.. I kind of consider that a good standard of comparison.
I presume you've done a good amount of research on G body suspension, what about some numbers on G body suspension?
I'm curious about front camber curves, bump steer, roll center etc...
Just on it's face, I would think the front suspension has some potential. For example, A third gen F body is generally considered a good handler yet with the modified macpherson strut setup, you have a less than ideal camber curve. I would think a G body could be set up to at least have a better camber curve and thus less compromise on the front spring rate.
I would imagine the wheelbase length could be a disadvantage on tight courses.
To me the weight isnt that big of an issue. My T type is just at around 3100 and its not "gutted" though it has drag wheels and no front swaybar. Not super light but not very heavy either.
Anyway, how do you think the suspension compares to say a thirdgen F body.. I kind of consider that a good standard of comparison.
Double Deuce
JUST SPOOLIN AROUND
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2007
A friend of mine from this board had a TTA that he drag raced with years ago that ran some stout numbers at that time. He sold the car to a guy that shipped it to Calif. and turned it into a road race car. Unless you just want to road race a regal go with a tta. Same engine but should handle alot better.
I'm not UNGN but I can give you an idea of issues with the G body front suspension. The camber curve is related because fo the verticle distance between the upper and lower arms. To properly get the most out of it, the distance between the upper and lower ball joint has to be increased. There are a number of ways you can do this. Longer ball joints is the easiest. Changing to a B body spindle is the second, and using this method requires a different upper control arm for better geometry. It removes almost all of the problems but it is expensive. The third is to adapt a different spindle. You can get aftermarket spindles. This idealy is the best because the designer can get rid of most of the issues that are inherant in the design.
One that is not used by most of the street/drag guys is the use of (believe it or not) Pinto spindles. This has been used for many years in circle track with great sucess and the aftermarket has stepped up with a stronger and lighter design that holds up better than the original G body spindle. Brake options to do pretty much whatever you want are not a problem either. The best thing about this design is it gets rid of some of the bump steer and you loose between 30 to 40 pounds of unsprung weight.
As far as a comparison to the third gen Camaro, there really isn't one. The strut design is fine for street duty and you can make it work fairly well but it will never handle as well as an unequal legnth control arm system. The 4th gen went back to this design because of the problems the strut front end had. Even the IROC race camaros used a tube frame with unequal legnth control arms. The other problem with the 3rd gen is the unichasis. A frame can be re-enforced to withstand the stresses of twisting that racing has on a chasis. With the unichasis design you will add more weight to the car and still have issues because it doesn't have a true frame under it.
Guys that I know that road race mustangs have them in the 2700 lb range and that would be pretty hard to get with a G-body. I'm sure its doable if you use and AL motor and heads, and spend money on lightweight stuff, but mustang guys just buy an 80's 4 cylinder mustang for nothing that is already light.
My 2+2 race weight is about 4000 lbs. If it was 3100lbs there isn't a Corvette made for less than $100K that could keep up with it.
The problem with the rear suspension from a racing standpoint is that is isn't as predictable in a corner as a corvette or F body so you have to go slower. A big heavy car will have a lot more body lean which is the signal to your brain to slow down, but if you know you can make the corner, you don't have to. With the stock rear suspension, you are not always sure you will make the corner.
Freeing the rear up with spherical ball joints and a panhard bar/watts link makes it much more predictable and allows for faster corner entry speeds.
Front suspension works with circle track parts like solid LCA bushings and taller spindles and negative camber. I'm hoping to get some before and after pictures on course this year to compare it to past set-ups to see if it corners flatter with this years set-up.
Thanks for all the replies. I'm not looking to build a full blown race car, just curious if these cars could occasionally handle a little road course duty. I really don't get to the track as much as I would like. If I do wind up buying another T-Type I think it would be hard for me to not upgrade the suspension for handling. I don't fix things that aren't broke. But when they're broke or worn, I like to upgrade.
Get rid of the powermaster for something reliable and put bigger brakes on the front.
Little things tall ball joints, stiffer, lower springs and better control arm bushings will help a lot, as will a large rear swaybar.
Build a car that is stable and predictable and you will be faster on track days than the guy with Viper that is scared to death of it.
Attached is the Results of a leg of one of the races we have run in and the cars we run against. For this race, the rules are you can't exceed 140 mph (there are radars on the course as 2 cars found out) and in my class, you try to average 115 for the entire race. Kind of like a Bracket road race. Since the second leg is harder, everyone goes flat out for the first leg so its a pretty good comparison of what a car is capable of. Generally, If a car runs over 115, they can probably go faster. If they can't run at least 115, that's about as fast as they'll go on that road with that guy behind the wheel. Remember, the road is narrow, twisty and rough.
None of the Viper guys believed me when I told them how fast I went, until they saw the official results. Friends of mine said they were talking crap about it at the bar after the race (and before the results were posted)
Before the race another Viper DH with an ACR tried to pull in front of me in the staging lanes (fastest cars go first). When I asked him what class he was in, he made some crack that he just figured he was faster than me. I told him the slow cars were about 25 cars back.
Handling mods to the car were pretty minimal in '04. I'm pretty sure we had stock front suspension arms /swaybar with 12" baer brakes, polygraphite uppers/ub machine solid lowers, GTA's with dunlop street tires (255/50), eibach springs and a Universal joint replacing the rag joint. Camber was set at -2 degrees.
In back, we had aftermarket control arms, disc brake 9" ford, Herb Adams 1.5" rear bar and Koni shocks. Pretty mild compared to what is available today if you have money to spend.
