Precision's new air cooled ceramic dual ball bearing cartridges.
- Thread starter RUQWKNF
- Start date
1 gallon of fun
New Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2009
water or air ?
Will the water cooled help the life of turbo, or is there difference between it and the air cooled, and the spool ?
Will the water cooled help the life of turbo, or is there difference between it and the air cooled, and the spool ?
ceramic BB vs convential dual BB........ .spoolup??? Are they identical? i.e. require the same stall?
Also.... 6765 billet ACBB......assuming it is available with the h-housing......is it worth it at this power level? ..... vs the smaller more common housing?
Assuming low 10 second.... high 9 second hp level.....
Also.... 6765 billet ACBB......assuming it is available with the h-housing......is it worth it at this power level? ..... vs the smaller more common housing?
Assuming low 10 second.... high 9 second hp level.....
See above....I gather they haven't had any issues...... which was my initial question (in my mind when I first read about them) as well...... sounds promising?
scot w.
GNSperformance.com
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
Sounds like a good idea just not sure of the durability compared to the old journal beraring turbo's.
I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say "These would be PERFECT if they are More durable than the old big shaft journal bearing turbos and spool quicker"
Very intrested in this turbo..
SW.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
More good stuff to know.
Just to ease everyone's minds and to answer a few questions, the Beta testing on these new Ceramic ACBB cartridges, were done with some of the Drift teams competing around the country. So with that said, there's only one other form of gasoline racing that could be harder on a turbo. And that's WRC rally racing. The drift teams experienced zero failures in testing these new units.
Spool up on these new turbos, compared to standard journal bearing turbos are very significant, when used with the correct torque converter.
To answer Blazer406's questions about spool up difference between standard water cooled dbb vs our ceramic ACBB, that has not been tested. But in reality, I would expect very little noticeable difference if everything else were the same. Also, stall speed requirements should be the same if comparing water cooled dual bb vs these new ceramic air cooled dual bb turbos.
asrnj77,
We prefer not to quote prices on here, but if you'd like, give us a call and I would be glad to quote you a price for that turbo.
M-F 8am-6pm CST #219-996-7832
The correct part number would be PTB300-6365 B for the E cover version, and PTB600-6365 B for the H cover version.
These new dbb cartridges use dual ceramic ball bearings, as opposed to steel bearings. Ceramic is a more heat tolerant material, so there is no need for water cooling provisions. These units are fully rebuildable with component parts. This allows for less costly rebuilds in the event of an incident.
Here are a few FAQ questions about these new units.
Are these units more vulnerable to heat soak without the water cooling option? Do we have to worry about oil coking?
Assuming that you are using clean, filtered oil that is changed every 3000 miles, there should not be any issues. Water cooling was introduced only at the request of OEs to meet demands of longer oil change intervals. A properly designed air cooling approach, combined with the best bearing materials available, allows us to do away with all of the cluttered water cooling lines. As a side note, the TR30R (Garrett's highly revered and only turbocharger designed for racing) has won countless 24 hour races using a steel ball bearing, air cooled center section. This same design concept has also been incorporated into the GT4708R, GT4718R and GT5533R turbochargers.
Do they spool any better than the water cooled, T-series CHRA's? IE: Less bearing drag?
Although a hybrid ceramic ball bearing has much less rolling resistance than a steel ball bearing, a difference in transient response will rarely be noticed by "seat of the pants."
How is the durability versus the water cooled T-series CHRA?
Hybrid ceramic bearings last up to 5 times longer than steel ball bearings in the same environment.
Are these full ceramic ball bearings or coated bearings?
They are hybrid ceramic. Steel races with silicon nitride balls.
Is there a weight difference between your chra and the T-series?
There is probably minimal difference in CHRA weight, but when you remove all the water lines and fittings, there will be a significant overall weight savings.
Why don't these new ceramic dual ball bearing cartridges require a oil restrictor fitting?
The bearing housing has built in "oil passages." At the present time, there is no definitive answer on whether the turbocharger will require a secondary restrictor or not. We can say during all of the Beta testing we have done, we have not had one fail or leak. These housings are threaded to accept standard 1/8 NPT style fittings, therefore a standard -4 AN to 1/8 NPT adaptor fitting will work, as well as the factory brass 90* fitting.
And the last thing I will mention is, that we do have a few well known supporting Turbo Buick.com vendors, who have been ordering and receiving these new turbos for their customers Buicks. Hopefully they will be posting more results soon.
Stay tuned guys and gals.
The future looks bright here at Precision Turbo.
Patrick
Just to ease everyone's minds and to answer a few questions, the Beta testing on these new Ceramic ACBB cartridges, were done with some of the Drift teams competing around the country. So with that said, there's only one other form of gasoline racing that could be harder on a turbo. And that's WRC rally racing. The drift teams experienced zero failures in testing these new units.
Spool up on these new turbos, compared to standard journal bearing turbos are very significant, when used with the correct torque converter.
To answer Blazer406's questions about spool up difference between standard water cooled dbb vs our ceramic ACBB, that has not been tested. But in reality, I would expect very little noticeable difference if everything else were the same. Also, stall speed requirements should be the same if comparing water cooled dual bb vs these new ceramic air cooled dual bb turbos.
asrnj77,
We prefer not to quote prices on here, but if you'd like, give us a call and I would be glad to quote you a price for that turbo.
M-F 8am-6pm CST #219-996-7832
The correct part number would be PTB300-6365 B for the E cover version, and PTB600-6365 B for the H cover version.
These new dbb cartridges use dual ceramic ball bearings, as opposed to steel bearings. Ceramic is a more heat tolerant material, so there is no need for water cooling provisions. These units are fully rebuildable with component parts. This allows for less costly rebuilds in the event of an incident.
Here are a few FAQ questions about these new units.
Are these units more vulnerable to heat soak without the water cooling option? Do we have to worry about oil coking?
Assuming that you are using clean, filtered oil that is changed every 3000 miles, there should not be any issues. Water cooling was introduced only at the request of OEs to meet demands of longer oil change intervals. A properly designed air cooling approach, combined with the best bearing materials available, allows us to do away with all of the cluttered water cooling lines. As a side note, the TR30R (Garrett's highly revered and only turbocharger designed for racing) has won countless 24 hour races using a steel ball bearing, air cooled center section. This same design concept has also been incorporated into the GT4708R, GT4718R and GT5533R turbochargers.
Do they spool any better than the water cooled, T-series CHRA's? IE: Less bearing drag?
Although a hybrid ceramic ball bearing has much less rolling resistance than a steel ball bearing, a difference in transient response will rarely be noticed by "seat of the pants."
How is the durability versus the water cooled T-series CHRA?
Hybrid ceramic bearings last up to 5 times longer than steel ball bearings in the same environment.
Are these full ceramic ball bearings or coated bearings?
They are hybrid ceramic. Steel races with silicon nitride balls.
Is there a weight difference between your chra and the T-series?
There is probably minimal difference in CHRA weight, but when you remove all the water lines and fittings, there will be a significant overall weight savings.
Why don't these new ceramic dual ball bearing cartridges require a oil restrictor fitting?
The bearing housing has built in "oil passages." At the present time, there is no definitive answer on whether the turbocharger will require a secondary restrictor or not. We can say during all of the Beta testing we have done, we have not had one fail or leak. These housings are threaded to accept standard 1/8 NPT style fittings, therefore a standard -4 AN to 1/8 NPT adaptor fitting will work, as well as the factory brass 90* fitting.
And the last thing I will mention is, that we do have a few well known supporting Turbo Buick.com vendors, who have been ordering and receiving these new turbos for their customers Buicks. Hopefully they will be posting more results soon.
Stay tuned guys and gals.
The future looks bright here at Precision Turbo.
Patrick
Great info Patrick......
Will the upgrade to the H housing yield any real world differences at the 650hp range.... like bottom 10 sec... high 9 sec range? Just trying to decide if I should get the H housing or not....
What about the exhaust housing? What options are there and what is the difference in recommended stall? Mine is a 95% street car....
Will the upgrade to the H housing yield any real world differences at the 650hp range.... like bottom 10 sec... high 9 sec range? Just trying to decide if I should get the H housing or not....
What about the exhaust housing? What options are there and what is the difference in recommended stall? Mine is a 95% street car....
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
If you intend to play in the 25-32psi range, then yes, opt for the H cover.
If never above 25, then no. Not that much gain. But at high boost levels, charge temps would start to play a role in performance. Exactly how much depends.
Most all Buick applications offer .63 and .85 A/R turbine housings. If 95% street car and wanting the quickest spool up possible, go .63 A/R. If max out track only race car, always go .85 A/R. Almost all HPQ turbine wheel equipped turbos come standard with the .85 A/R housing. I think in all my time here, I've only ever spec'd one turbo with a .63 A/R housing for a HPQ turbine wheel equipped turbo.
HTH
Patrick
IMHO with pump gas and a steady alky diet.....conservative timing..... north of 25 psi is again... IMHO..... very possible......so maybe it will be worth it....
Does this larger compressor housing make it harder to spool vs the standard housing? or have a fallen and hit my head?
What would be the correct part number for:
1.) 6765 ACBB with the standard compressor housing? What housing is the "std" housing (inlet size and outlet size)?
2.) 6765 ACBB with the H cover (4"/3")
Both turbos with the Precision .63 exhaust housing....
Sorry.....OT - but can I purchase a H cover for my TE-45A? What is the right part number for that?
1.) 6765 ACBB with the standard compressor housing? What housing is the "std" housing (inlet size and outlet size)?
2.) 6765 ACBB with the H cover (4"/3")
Both turbos with the Precision .63 exhaust housing....
Sorry.....OT - but can I purchase a H cover for my TE-45A? What is the right part number for that?
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
No problem.
1. Standard comp cover is typically the S cover on the 6765 turbos. (4" inlet, 2.5" outlet) Official part number for it with the S cover and ACBB is 405-6765B and make sure to ask for the Air Cooled ceramic ball bearing chra and .63 A/R t-hsg.
2. Official part number for it with the H cover and ACBB is 605-6765B and make sure to ask for the Air Cooled ceramic ball bearing chra and .63 A/R t-hsg as well.
With regards to the H cover for your TE45a, we do not have a new style H cover that would be a direct bolt on for that turbo, because the backing plate used is completely different that what is currently sold today.
That turbo would need to be sent in to us, to get upgraded. Meaning, new compressor cover and backing plate. No part numbers available for that upgrade. Converting a TE45a into an H cover, would be what we used to call a PT66. 66mm compressor wheel, P-trim turbine wheel, H series compressor cover and either a .63 or .85 A/R turbine housing. Rated at 700 flywheel hp. Circa 1997 series turbocharger. Also, typical lead time on all repairs and or upgrades are 2-3 weeks, once the turbo hits our door.
HTH
Patrick
Turbo6Smackdown
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2005
HA HAAAAA! Here we go yet AGAIN. Another wave of turbos in the for sale section with 150 miles on 'em lol.
I'm SO glad I waited on this.... This newest line of turbos is SOO sweet... I can't wait till next year.... I'm guessing frame notch kits are going to become a lot more popular now...
I'm SO glad I waited on this.... This newest line of turbos is SOO sweet... I can't wait till next year.... I'm guessing frame notch kits are going to become a lot more popular now...
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
What size are you interested in?
FWIW,
This ACBB cartridge is currently available on the Billet 71 & 76mm series turbos.
Patrick
We just started shipping these new air cooled dual ball bearing cartridges out. These are dimensionally the same as the standard T3/T4 dbb units.
Here's the info on them.
"Precision Turbo Dual Ceramic Ball Bearing Turbocharger
These units feature an air-cooled, ball bearing center housing rotating assembly. Dual, angular contact ceramic ball bearings are utilized for maximum durability and an increased thrust load. These units require the use of a 1/8” NPT to -4 AN male fitting on the oil feed side, which can be purchased separately from Precision Turbo (PFT047-3039). At this time, we do not feel it is necessary to use an external oil feed restrictor fitting. At the minimum, we recommend the use of a -10AN oil drain flange/line. This flange can be purchased separately from Precision Turbo (PTP074-2008). Water cooling is not required on these units.
***This unit has been sealed for quality purposes. Do not remove the factory oil feed restrictor fitting, or damage may result***
If you have questions about this, or any of our other products, please contact us directly at (219) 996-7832."
We are currently shipping these chras with turbos that have the 57mm and 65mm turbine wheels. This includes the 6765 turbo. We have spent the last 3 years Beta testing these units in the field for reliability and durability and they passed with flying colors. The 6262, HPQ and HPS turbine wheel equipped turbos are to follow shortly. I will keep everyone up to date on those as well. Here is a pic of the new cartridge.
Also, pricing is the same for these new cartridges.
Let us know if you have any questions.
Patrick
Does anyone know what the minimum / maximum oil pressure should be using a -3AN oil feedline with these ceramic bearing turbos? .....john
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Hello John.
We do not recommend using a -3 AN oil feed line on these new ceramic dual ball bearing turbos. -4 AN is what is recommended by us. These cartridges have different oiling requirements than the Garrett dbb cartridges had. Also, we do not recommend running any restricters in the feed line on these new cartridges. Typically, we do not recommend running oil pressures past 80psi as that high a pressure can cause some issues. There's really no minimum per say, but I would think that if your Buick V6 had hot oil pressure below 10psi, you would have a lot bigger fish to fry.
Hope this helps.
Patrick
? carbon seal? for hot air buicks?
I have a TA33C turbo upgrade of my original 85 Rivera turbo convertible , I have always wanted a ball bearing turbo for this car, Garrett T3 center housing rotataing assembly uses a 57 mm turbine wheel and I think 58 mm compressor wheel, I don't think it's a 60mm, but could be.
Can this new non-water cooled CHRA be had with a carbon compressor seal? I have full engine vacuum through the compressor housing when not in boost.
I have the stock hot hot air compressor housing that has been bored out for the bigger wheel, and the stock T3 riviera turbine housing that has be bored out for the 57mm turbine wheel. CAN 360 thrust and stagger gap piston ring a available also?
I would very much be interested in CHRA with this new technology, with a billet compressor wheel also.
Patrick PTE, please reply, BEST REGARDS, TURBO E38
I have a TA33C turbo upgrade of my original 85 Rivera turbo convertible , I have always wanted a ball bearing turbo for this car, Garrett T3 center housing rotataing assembly uses a 57 mm turbine wheel and I think 58 mm compressor wheel, I don't think it's a 60mm, but could be.
Can this new non-water cooled CHRA be had with a carbon compressor seal? I have full engine vacuum through the compressor housing when not in boost.
I have the stock hot hot air compressor housing that has been bored out for the bigger wheel, and the stock T3 riviera turbine housing that has be bored out for the 57mm turbine wheel. CAN 360 thrust and stagger gap piston ring a available also?
I would very much be interested in CHRA with this new technology, with a billet compressor wheel also.
Patrick PTE, please reply, BEST REGARDS, TURBO E38
